What is the end game of the Israeli State/Zionism?


Clanrickard

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Seems like none of you hasbara trolls can stop lying for the Apartheid regime.....they have over 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinians.
The same Equal/Full rights for Palestinians just like israelis? What a laugh.....any proof and links?
Ratio made the statement let her back it up.
 

Golah veNekhar

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"... While often repeated, these assertions are based on misconception, error and outright invention. In fact, most of the land in Israel is government-owned, and it is equally available to all Israelis, whether Jewish or Arab..."

Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel? :: Middle East Quarterly

Note that out of a total population of 9 million citizens, there are over 1.5 million Arab citizens in Israel (Muslim and Christian), living in their own homes on their own land.
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/531
 

Speedfreak

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Ratio I note you have recently pointed to three historical cases of Zionists criticising their own community's treatment of the Arab community, that were big events in Zionist domestic debate.

But in the critiques you are identifying, each time, massive improvements were made and specific actions taken on foot of these no doubt harsh criticisms.

Well I put it to you wouldn't it be great if the Arabs had ever made such criticisms of themselves? Of their own treatment of the Jews? Now no doubt, one or two have tried, but what was their fate? Were their criticisms considered, or were they denounced as "traitors"?

Yes, examine Arab culture and you find that self-criticism and/or questioning of religious teachings and state leadership and anything else really is forbidden and culturally brings shame, dishonour and violence to those who try.

Actually it's the same kind of problem we have in this country. We're so great at waving any self-criticisms the Jews have done in their faces and saying, see, you say it yourself, so it must be true, etc! But we rarely dare to self criticise ourselves in any real, meaningful terms. (I've certainly tried it and been denounced as a 'traitor' etc.)
 

Golah veNekhar

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Seems like none of you hasbara trolls can stop lying for the Apartheid regime.....they have over 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinians.
The same Equal/Full rights for Palestinians just like israelis? What a laugh.....any proof and links?
The really big question is the "Arab Israelis" at the moment. As Shlomo Sand has pointed out the more they become "Israeli" the more that they hate "Israel". Until 1965 they lived under military rule and any perceived as charismatic in a way that would cause the colonists trouble was killed straight off or put in what were basically death camps. They make up over twenty per cent of the population so if say the Galilee explodes what is going to happen? The Jewish Israelis are well aware of this- which is why a lot on the Right want to further their oppression or bride them to leave (of course if they do not want to take the brides the Right plans to kill them).
 

Golah veNekhar

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Ratio I note you have recently pointed to three historical cases of Zionists criticising their own community's treatment of the Arab community, that were big events in Zionist domestic debate.
Professor Israel Shahak did not come from a Zionist family. After World War II his family ended up in Palestine because they had no where else to go (note I am opposed to the idea of ethnically cleansing the Jews from Palestine though I do think the ruling class will most leave anyway after the end of Zionism and some of the recent Modern Orthodox head the ball immigrants should maybe be deported back to the UK or the USA. He went along with Zionism and considered himself an Israeli patriot until incidents in his life forced him to re-think things so from the mid-1950s onwards forced him to re-think. One of his big criticisms of Jewish culture by the way was it's lack of self-criticism and aversion to seeking objectivity. He was also at times extremely critical of the indigenous Palestinian leadership. He predicted exactly where the Oslo accords would lead and rightly pointed out that Arafat bought into through his vanity.
 

Speedfreak

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The really big question is the "Arab Israelis" at the moment. As Shlomo Sand has pointed out the more they become "Israeli" the more that they hate "Israel".
You will just say anything to incite other morons (like Toney).

[video=youtube;CBTLbj_ouVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBTLbj_ouVM[/video]
 

Speedfreak

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He predicted exactly where the Oslo accords would lead and rightly pointed out that Arafat bought into through his vanity.
There were a number who pointed out exactly where Oslo would lead. E.g. Arafat's Grand Strategy :: Middle East Quarterly But the world told Israel that they had no need to fear, and the majority of Israelis believed it too, whole-heartedly, and that they must do this for a chance at peace, but they little realised what it would ultimately lead to, and the renewed wars and intifadas against them, built on the concessions they had made, and launched right from their doorstep this time, rather than from a neighboring Arab country.
 

james toney

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Where are all these full and equal rights that Palestinians have..the same as israelis? Still no proof.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Ratio I note you have recently pointed to three historical cases of Zionists criticising their own community's treatment of the Arab community, that were big events in Zionist domestic debate.

But in the critiques you are identifying, each time, massive improvements were made and specific actions taken on foot of these no doubt harsh criticisms.


Well I put it to you wouldn't it be great if the Arabs had ever made such criticisms of themselves? Of their own treatment of the Jews? Now no doubt, one or two have tried, but what was their fate? Were their criticisms considered, or were they denounced as "traitors"?

Yes, examine Arab culture and you find that self-criticism and/or questioning of religious teachings and state leadership and anything else really is forbidden and culturally brings shame, dishonour and violence to those who try.

Actually it's the same kind of problem we have in this country. We're so great at waving any self-criticisms the Jews have done in their faces and saying, see, you say it yourself, so it must be true, etc! But we rarely dare to self criticise ourselves in any real, meaningful terms. (I've certainly tried it and been denounced as a 'traitor' etc.)
The underlined is nonsense- things are becoming worse and worse for "Arab-Israelis". A vast bulk of them now survive on charity from the rest of the Levant.

Look you have got to give up finding right wing Zionist websites and crude propaganda to suit your prejudices. One of the greatest crimes of Zionism was the destruction of Judaeo-Arabic culture, in most times and places Jews were a fully integrated part of the Islamic world that de facto were treated the same or even better than your average Muslims, at times they were not but those were much rarer. Speaking of Judaeo-Christian culture is nonsensical but there were Judaeo-Islamic cultures.

You obviously know extremely little about Levantine Muslim culture which also has it's pathologies there is no denying however Islam has the widest spectrum of belief of all of the three Abrahamic Faiths. Since the disappearance of the 12 th Iman there has never been a central authority in Islam outside of the Aga Khan and Seveners are a very minor group while intellectually and culturally group- Islam is quite anarchic, which leads to problems of it's own. Yes Muslims have a pathological honour/shame thing and yes the family is important to an often pathological degree among Muslims. However over all Islamic culture is superior on a human as opposed to money making level, and I say that because I know you will pull out that card, to Jewish culture. And I say this as someone who has been around both Muslims and Jews.
 

Speedfreak

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Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

"They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
(source)

The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.
 

Golah veNekhar

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There were a number who pointed out exactly where Oslo would lead. E.g. Arafat's Grand Strategy :: Middle East Quarterly But the world told Israel that they had no need to fear, and the majority of Israelis believed it too, whole-heartedly, and that they must do this for a chance at peace, but they little realised what it would ultimately lead to, and the renewed wars and intifadas against them, built on the concessions they had made, and launched right from their doorstep this time, rather than from a neighboring Arab country.
Professor Israel Shahak opposed Olso though because he felt primarily that it left the Arab Israelis and Palestinian refugees in the cold, and that what Arafat agreed to was basically a glorified Bantustan- he even opposed Co Ghaddafi's peace plan because he was for full integration. Bit different from Daniel Pipes and his ilk. Israel never had any intention of honouring the Oslo accords but it has now the Palestinian Authority which gives a fig leaf that it does not pay for to impose Zionism on the West Bank- as Israel Shahak predicted.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

"They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
(source)

The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.
The states in the region outside of Qatar which is it's own complicated story that could justly be considered totalitarian Israel is allied to. Israel and Saudi Arabia are basically the same as regards social injustice and state brutality. So if you think the House of Saud offers a role model than yes Israel is great.
 

Speedfreak

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Professor Israel Shahak ...
Ah yes. David Duke's favourite Jew being held up yet again.

Point being the likes of Ilan Pappé, Israel Shahak et al represent an extreme fringe of Israeli society.

Imagine people in other countries pretending that say Lenny Murphy represented the voice of truth and reality in Ireland.

I'm not saying the above were murderous pychopaths like Lenny Murphy, but you get the point. Maybe say the likes of Mick Wallace would be a better example (if he was much more extreme in his views).
 

Clanrickard

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Proves nothing. The Supreme Court overruled that law in 2007 and ruled the JNF could not discriminate on the grounds of ethnicity. Bigot.

Read what you said....it's funny that you made such a ludicrous claim.... Any proof that Palestinians have full rights?
Where are all these full and equal rights that Palestinians have..the same as israelis? Still no proof.
You don't know how this works do you? Someone made a claim there were 40 or so laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis. I asked her to name these laws. She couldn't and cannot because Israeli law is clear. It is is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and has been for decades. There are Arab officers in the army, Judges, and in many other walks of life including the speaker of the Knesset at one stage. Now you are a bullsh*tter.

The states in the region outside of Qatar which is it's own complicated story that could justly be considered totalitarian Israel is allied to. Israel and Saudi Arabia are basically the same as regards social injustice and state brutality. So if you think the House of Saud offers a role model than yes Israel is great.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

"They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
(source)

The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.
I want the end of Israel as a Jewish State because in part that will make sure that nearly every Jewish child in Palestine gets two decent meals a day. The thing is that the two state solution is no longer possible- as Gideon Levy has said the Settlers have won. Maybe there was a time you did but now you do not oppose the Settler project. It is only a matter of time before the so-called "Palestinian Authority" collapses because it has lost all legitimacy with the Palestinians- and than the illusion of a two state solution will be gone. You know it is gone as much as anyone else. So what do we have than? An Apartheid regime far more brutal than South Africa could ever imagined.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Ah yes. David Duke's favourite Jew being held up yet again.

Point being the likes of Ilan Pappé, Israel Shahak et al represent an extreme fringe of Israeli society.

Imagine people in other countries pretending that say Lenny Murphy represented the voice of truth and reality in Ireland.

I'm not saying the above were murderous pychopaths like Lenny Murphy, but you get the point. Maybe say the likes of Mick Wallace would be a better example (if he was much more extreme in his views).
David Duke is a serious creep. However you and him are incredibly similar. The reason he hates Jews so much is obvious- he has a ton of typically Jewish cultural pathologies himself.
 

Clanrickard

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I want the end of Israel as a Jewish State because in part that will make sure that nearly every Jewish child in Palestine gets two decent meals a day. The thing is that the two state solution is no longer possible- as Gideon Levy has said the Settlers have won. Maybe there was a time you did but now you do not oppose the Settler project. It is only a matter of time before the so-called "Palestinian Authority" collapses because it has lost all legitimacy with the Palestinians- and than the illusion of a two state solution will be gone. You know it is gone as much as anyone else. So what do we have than? An Apartheid regime far more brutal than South Africa could ever imagined.
 
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