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Thread: John Bruton is a Carsonite.

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    Default John Bruton is a Carsonite.

    John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


    Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

    "Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
    the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
    a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
    and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
    remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
    blasphemy."

    Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.

    <mod>Please do not spam the site with numerous versions of the same thread</mod>

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    You do realise that Carson was oppsed to partition as well. He believed that all of Ireland would be best served in the Union. Not quite the same thing that FG and John Bruton believe, despite your best efferts to portray otherwise

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    94% of the southern Irish are carsonite in that case since that is the percentage which voted to legitimise the Union of Great Britain and N.I. some years ago.

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    Default Re: John Bruton is a Carsonite.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


    Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

    "Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
    the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
    a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
    and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
    remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
    blasphemy."

    Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.
    No Irish nationalist wanted to partition Ireland. It was inevitable, however, whn the Gaelic separatists decided that unity was less important than anti-Britishness.

    John Bruton is a true anti-partitionist. He believes that a British unionist is as Irish as Jackie Healey-Rae. Republicans want unionists to repent the sins and recant. They want them to abandon their identity and culture and try to be good plastic paddies.

    Fine Gael stands apart from other successors to Sinn Fein and they want to unify the Irish people, not reclaim land through a victory, whether violent or polticial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voiceofretribution
    You do realise that Carson was oppsed to partition as well. He believed that all of Ireland would be best served in the Union. Not quite the same thing that FG and John Bruton believe, despite your best efferts to portray otherwise
    Wrong.

    On January First 1913 Carson proposed an amendment to the 1912 Home Rule Bill that proposed excluding the nine counties of Ulster. Later he recommended acceptance of the Government Of Ireland Act 1920(aka Fourth Home Rule Bill) which legislated for the partition of Ireland under a dual parliament Home Rule framework; Home Rule for the North, Home Rule for the South. Of course he would have rather have no Home Rule at all but when presented with the inevitability of a Home Rule solution to the Irish Question he opted for and campaigned for partition which we know was violently opposed by all shades of Nationalism and Southern Unionists who resented being abandoned by Carson.

    Bottom line; Carson supported partition, same as Fine Gael.

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    Default Re: John Bruton is a Carsonite.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Horse
    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


    Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

    "Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
    the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
    a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
    and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
    remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
    blasphemy."

    Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.
    No Irish nationalist wanted to partition Ireland. It was inevitable, however, whn the Gaelic separatists decided that unity was less important than anti-Britishness.

    John Bruton is a true anti-partitionist. He believes that a British unionist is as Irish as Jackie Healey-Rae. Republicans want unionists to repent the sins and recant. They want them to abandon their identity and culture and try to be good plastic paddies.

    Fine Gael stands apart from other successors to Sinn Fein and they want to unify the Irish people, not reclaim land through a victory, whether violent or polticial.
    Fine Gale can stand for what ever it wants but they cannot claim the mantle of John Redmond and the Home Rule Party who were vociferously anti partition.

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    Default Re: John Bruton is a Carsonite.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites
    I don't know if they would describe themselves as such.

    but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition.
    Your quaint label for the situation prior to 1916 does not bear much weight in the current situation.

    Redmond opposed partition,
    Redmond opposed an independent Ireland. So did Carson.

    His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.
    Hardly unless you just have the merest veneer of a clue.

    Regards...jmcc
    Regards...jmcc

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    Default Re: John Bruton is a Carsonite.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition
    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    Bottom line; Carson supported partition, same as Fine Gael
    This might sound like an outrageous question, but........have you got anything at all to back this up?

    When did John Bruton ever say that he supported Partition?

    Did you miss the recent Fine Gael Árd Fheis, where FG members voted unanimously to re-affirm their commitment to end Partition?
    "The IRA Army Council have a history of telling the truth. If they say they didn't do it, then I believe them" - Bertie Ahern, speaking after the murder of Det. Garda Jerry McCabe

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    'He continued to lead the Unionists but when the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was introduced, advised his party to work for the exemption of six Ulster counties from Home Rule as the best compromise (a compromise he had previously rejected). This proposal passed and as a result the Parliament of Northern Ireland was established. After the partition of Ireland, Carson repeatedly warned Ulster Unionist leaders not to alienate northern Catholics, as he accurately foresaw this would make Northern Ireland unstable. In 1921 he stated: "We used to say that we could not trust an Irish parliament in Dublin to do justice to the Protestant minority. Let us take care that that reproach can no longer be made against your parliament, and from the outset let them see that the Catholic minority have nothing to fear from a Protestant majority." His calls went unheeded.'

    [edit]

    He initially argued against partition of any kind, believing that one Iirsh state within the Union was the best way for the island of Ireland to Progress, but following the passing of the 3rd home rule bill, he had no option but to support a parliament for ulster.

    And you might also like to note that not only do FG support partition as it stands, (the good friday agreement) so do FF, PD's Labour, Greens, Sinn Fein, the SDLP, the UUP and 70% of the people on this entire island.
    Judge

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfinnegan
    Bottom line; Carson supported partition
    And by the way, Carson was vociferously opposed to Partition - he only accepted it (as better than nothing) when it became clear that Home Rule was inevitable
    "The IRA Army Council have a history of telling the truth. If they say they didn't do it, then I believe them" - Bertie Ahern, speaking after the murder of Det. Garda Jerry McCabe

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