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Thread: Cruthin

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    Default Cruthin

    so I've been doing some reading. Adamson and some others, more reputable historians. The general consensus seems to be that there was but not really a separate people on this island who may or may not have probably been pushed out to Scotland by an invading horde of Gaels from southern Europe.

    anyone?
    “Show me the man you honour, and I will know what kind of man you are.” - Thomas Carlyle

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    There does appear to have been some kind of seismic social shift in Ireland, encoded in our mythology as the 'fir bolg' and the 'Danae'.

    I reference mythology because its important in Ireland where written records don't go back far enough. Our traditional method of passing on history as stories so they will stay in our consciousness is too strong to ignore as a possible explanation of some social upheaval in the past.

    I haven't read as widely as you have but I'm intrigued by our early history and that fabled struggle for power. I'd love to get some possible timeline and then start looking again at what we know of general European social history- are there any clues where mythology takes over from history as to who or where the 'fir bolg' or the Danae were?

    If one looks at the maps of 'Hibernia' by Ptolomaeus they look childlike as Ireland is shown on the same natural latitude as Spain, which can't be right. Unless you look at the sea as a trading route which could easily explain why Ptolomaeus thought that Spain and Ireland are closer than they are in reality.

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    Adamson? Reputable? ROFL. Man's a raving loon.

    The "celtic invasion" theory was invented by a bunch of 19th century Victorian English eejits and has been thoroughly demolished into tiny little pieces by an overwhelming weight of archaelogical and genetic evidence since.

    It's Crown propoaganda, nothing more.

    What did happen is that there was a cultural war that went on for 1,000 years. The Milesians, who may or may not have been from Spain, or maybe just picked up the culture by trading with Spain, were originally a small bunch but they had a powerful propaganda narrative, a more cohesive social structure, a more warlike nature and possibly most importantly the will to assimiliate than most other tutha of the time.

    The Milesian plan was pretty simple - either through force of arms or by intermarriage, gain control of a tuatha, but leave most of the original derbhfine in place. Then gradually strip the tuatha's own history from them over a few generations, replacing this with a makey-uppy descent from Heremon, Eber, or Ir.

    Milesian offshoots jumped across Ireland from Tara and did this everywhere e.g. the Eoghanachta and the northern Uí Neill. The long wars approx (500-1000AD) of the latter with the Ulaid confederacy have been elevated by propagandists like Adamson to "prove" the existance of a distinct "Ulster people" who are the "descendants" (more illogical leaps of faith) of the Planters. It's all nonsense and completely ignores the minor fact that at the same period in history Munster was racked with exactly the same cultural struggle.

    Same people, two different religio/cultural philosophies. Exactly the same as today, really.

    The fact that the insane and racist wibblings of Victorian madmen are still being used as the basis for peoples self-image just shows how completely warped and debased the Irish knowledge of their own history and culture has become under the malign influence of Ingerlund.

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    And the Tuatha de Danaan/Fir Bolg struggle predates the Milesian/Cruthin one by a good 2,000 years.

    The latter has plenty of archaeological, genetic, and written evidence from the early Christian Monks to tell us what was really going on. The earlier struggle, which brought to an end the high civilisation of the Boyne Vally that built Newgrange etc, remains a complete mystery although again there is no archaeological or genetic evidence for an actual invasion. Again it's more likely to be a simple religio-cultural war between two factions of the same people.

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    I'm not expert on this issue, but I'm sure the "Cruthin" were meant to be the
    same people as the Scottish Picts.

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    I know that Scots (gallowglas) mercenaries were often hired by petty Irish kings and Irish gallowglas's hired by petty Scottish kings so it would be hard at this stage to separate influence, immigration and invasion.

    I'm with SamVimesBoots on the whole attempt by a faction in Ulster to revise history away from the Plantations era and understand why. But its dangerous territory as Scotland itself was divided into Picts (east) and Gaels (west) at least up to the 11th and 12th centuries as far as I have picked up.

    We are a peculiar nation. When we aren't actually fighting other people's wars we are busy introducing them at home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lao-Tse View Post
    I'm not expert on this issue, but I'm sure the "Cruthin" were meant to be the
    same people as the Scottish Picts.
    No, the Picts were completely seperate.

    The Dal Riada clan who lived in what is now Co Antrim set up a colony in SW Scotland, specifically Galloway and Argyle, around the 6th century or so as they started to come under pressure from the Uí Neill in western Ulster to conform to the Milesian ways. The colony thrived and became much more powerful than the mother tribe, which led them into conflict with the Picts who at that stage controlled most of north and east Scotland. They were known as the Scotti, which back then actually meant "Irish"

    The usual pattern of royal marriages to keep the peace eventually led to Kenneth MacAlpin in the 9th century, who was descended from both the Scotti and Pictish royal houses and really began the process of merging the two people into the Kingdom of Alba, thus creating what we now know as Scotland and the Scottish.

    The "Cruthin" tribes (the Dal Riada, Dal Fiatach, Dal nAraidi mainly) of east Ulster eventually succumed to Milesian dominance after the battle of Craeb Tulcha in 1004AD.

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    Concur with the above. I would add that the origin of the Picts is pure speculation, but some historians believe they were a celtic tribe and may have intermarried with the Scotti prior to the Dalriadian colony being established.

    Bottom line both Scotland and the northern part of the island of Ireland have been culturally linked for centuries and is not the sole preserve of planter, unionist sentiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamVimesBoots View Post
    The "Cruthin" tribes (the Dal Riada, Dal Fiatach, Dal nAraidi mainly) of east Ulster eventually succumed to Milesian dominance after the battle of Craeb Tulcha in 1004AD.
    That seems to tie in with the general unionist idea that there was two different peoples on this island and the plantations were indeed a "home-coming" of sorts.
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    Cruthin is a fake Adamson origin myth for Unionism.
    It has less credibility than the Easter bunny.
    If you want to read fairy tales, I recommend the Brothers Grimm.
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