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Thread: Nama uncertainty has paralysed the development property market

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Default Nama uncertainty has paralysed the development property market

    Whether you are for or against Nama it is clear that it is unclear whether it will succeed. A new report has found that the development market is paralysed due to it and there remains a large overhang of unsold properties:

    Irish Times Nama issue 'paralysing' building

    Uncertainty over how the National Assets Management Agency (Nama) will function and the time being taken to set it up has caused “effective paralysis in the industry,” according to a new report.
    I think this uncertainty is also spilling over into the retail market. We now are in a very bad position - and stuck there- Nama appears to be a lug weight which is depressing activity. This activity is needed to allow the correction to bottom out.

    To my mind Nama has 2 critical areas of uncertainty:

    1 ) Pricing: how are they going to price illiquid , toxic loans and associated security ?

    2 ) Legal: the loan agreements are between the development companies & the banks, each agreement is unique and may preclude transfer to another agency.

    Given the fact that it appears to be introducing more uncertainty - and paralysis - is it time to perform last rites on Nama and go for nationalisation ?

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post
    Given the fact that it appears to be introducing more uncertainty - and paralysis - is it time to perform last rites on Nama and go for nationalisation ?
    I think we need to disentangle two things here. There's NAMA on the one hand. And then there's the fact that so much property has been built that there's no need to build any more.

    There's absolutely no need to wait for NAMA to drop prices and clear the existing stock.

    Is the suggestion that insolvent builders are waiting to see if NAMA will buy their existing stock for an inflated price? Of course, in fairness, that probably is FFs plan.

    But I don't see nationalisation as the alternative. Just let the banks go, and the developers with them.
    However, banks know they have a duty of care to their clients and I'm sure that this should prevent them lending irresponsibly.

    George Lee 2 June 2006

    Ziggy

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post
    Whether you are for or against Nama it is clear that it is unclear whether it will succeed. A new report has found that the development market is paralysed due to it and there remains a large overhang of unsold properties:

    I think this uncertainty is also spilling over into the retail market. We now are in a very bad position - and stuck there- Nama appears to be a lug weight which is depressing activity. This activity is needed to allow the correction to bottom out.

    To my mind Nama has 2 critical areas of uncertainty:

    1 ) Pricing: how are they going to price illiquid , toxic loans and associated security ?

    2 ) Legal: the loan agreements are between the development companies & the banks, each agreement is unique and may preclude transfer to another agency.

    Given the fact that it appears to be introducing more uncertainty - and paralysis - is it time to perform last rites on Nama and go for nationalisation ?

    cYp
    Construction / development is paralysed because we had a vast, sustainable explosion of development without a corresponding growth of the real economy. NAMA may prove to be a cure; it is not the disease.

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuhart View Post
    I think we need to disentangle two things here. There's NAMA on the one hand. And then there's the fact that so much property has been built that there's no need to build any more.

    There's absolutely no need to wait for NAMA to drop prices and clear the existing stock.
    The problem is that the banks are scared to call in the loans, they've been happier to roll interest & all sort of tricks

    The developers don't want to admit bankruptcy

    If the stash of property they are sitting on was forced to be released (to part repay the loans) - we would then see the necessary downwards correction

    But Nama just has everything in stasis right now ... as long as the State guarantee is there : we need some State solution to get us out of this hole ... and I wonder how long can we afford to wait for Nama ?

    Even if people knew that Nama was going to work & how it would work: then we could start operating on that assumption, right now everything is in limbo ... even a slightly worse plan, but one that looks feasible and with buy in, would be preferrable at this stage

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuhart View Post
    I think we need to disentangle two things here. There's NAMA on the one hand. And then there's the fact that so much property has been built that there's no need to build any more.

    There's absolutely no need to wait for NAMA to drop prices and clear the existing stock.

    Is the suggestion that insolvent builders are waiting to see if NAMA will buy their existing stock for an inflated price? Of course, in fairness, that probably is FFs plan.

    But I don't see nationalisation as the alternative. Just let the banks go, and the developers with them.
    If you let the banks go then the state has to either pick up the tab for any depositor with money in the bank or else not stand over its guarantee and leave the depositors lose their savings. Either way Joe Soap loses out.

    Any person in the country who has a euro in the bank does not have it sitting there in a safe waiting to be taken out That euro has been lent on by the bank, much of it to developers.

    Even if they decide to just let the really bad banks go then that would just cause a run on the remaining ones. Imagine the panic if it went around that say Anglo Irish bank depositor could not withdraw their funds.

    I would have no problem with letting the developers go bankrupt if that is what is best for the country. NAMA may be the way to do this. But the banks are needed for the economy to function.

    The whole idea as I see it is to hope that some of the developments can come right or at least improve in time(10 to 15 years). The economy can't wait that long and needs functioning banks now. The state can take on these debts and work through them over 10 to 15 years.

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steady on now View Post
    I would have no problem with letting the developers go bankrupt if that is what is best for the country. NAMA may be the way to do this. But the banks are needed for the economy to function.
    Mmmmm - I've read some of the "loan" agreements with the banks for some of the larger developments.

    Very complex legal arrangements , the developers are often only a small part of it , with private investors often taking part in a holding company.

    The loans themselves are a bit more like investments than loans

    It is not at all clear who would go to the wall, as on some of the agreements I've seen there was very little cushion by way of additional security beyond the development itself ... the "billionaire" developers seem not to have had billions ...

    But back to main point : the government need to convince all that Nama is the "happening thing" - else paralysis until (if) it happens will remain.

    If they can't convince us that Nama is the "happening thing" by say the end of June: they should can it & go for the consensus option (nationalisation)

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Government now saying that the Nama "overhang" development land bank is up to 2,500 acres in Dublin and may be partly released to counteract rising house prices
    NAMA may be used to control rising property prices - RTÉ News

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    There is no housing policy in Ireland. Oh wait there is one after all, it's 'let's encourage private investors to make a killing while those on the social housing waiting list can stay in hotels and BnB's.

    It's outrageous that Noonan says we need higher house prices while prices are increasing by 10%-15% in the previous 12 months as a result of no supply. Then stands by while banks introduce gimmicks to stimulate the demand side of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ottovonbismark View Post
    There is no housing policy in Ireland. Oh wait there is one after all, it's 'let's encourage private investors to make a killing while those on the social housing waiting list can stay in hotels and BnB's.

    It's outrageous that Noonan says we need higher house prices while prices are increasing by 10%-15% in the previous 12 months as a result of no supply. Then stands by while banks introduce gimmicks to stimulate the demand side of the equation.
    "It would be a very brave politician indeed to expose themselves to all of that flak on the basis of the construction lobby’s unverified assertion that it is the way to solve the housing supply problem in Dublin.

    The result is policy paralysis and ever-rising house prices.

    Lack of evidence
    The Government is expected to publish a construction strategy in the next few weeks. It would be surprising if it does not give the construction lobby some of what it wants, as they have made a strong case. There may not be any evidence to back up their case, but neither is there a compelling counter-argument put forward by anyone else.

    The Government can be expected to follow the line of least resistance in such circumstances and a “strategy document” will give them some cover.

    Let’s hope the construction lobby has got it right this time."

    Opinion: No concrete data behind race to build new homes - Property News | Irish Construction & Property Market | The Irish T - Mon, Apr 21, 2014
    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair.

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    Politics.ie Member Half Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottovonbismark View Post
    There is no housing policy in Ireland. Oh wait there is one after all, it's 'let's encourage private investors to make a killing while those on the social housing waiting list can stay in hotels and BnB's.

    It's outrageous that Noonan says we need higher house prices while prices are increasing by 10%-15% in the previous 12 months as a result of no supply. Then stands by while banks introduce gimmicks to stimulate the demand side of the equation.
    Noonan is probably waiting for all those evictions that will take place as a result of 13,000 mortgages sold to vulture funds.

    It's a policy of sorts.

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