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Thread: An opportunity for bio diesel

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Default An opportunity for bio diesel

    The argument against increasing the use of ethanol is that it is imported and made from food crops. Bio diesel can be made from rapeseed and other crops which can be grown in Ireland.
    At present, motor sales are non existant so tax revenue from selling or registering new cars is negligible.
    My suggestion is that the govt. cut taxes on diesel cars sufficiently to make them more attractive than petrol engines. Eventually when people start to buy cars, they will choose diesel which have better fuel consumption than petrol.
    Simultaneously, encourage the construction of several biodiesel plants which would setup contracts with tillage farmers to supply suitable feedstock for a period of years - much as the brewers and distillers contract with farmers to grow barley.
    We can switch to diesel quite easily, electric cars are a way off and once the recession in the U.S. eases, fuel costs will start to rise again.
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    Electric cars aren't way off they're just still small and not pretty. Bio-fuel that is actually useful is about 5-10 years off, same with really good electric.(Already invented just has to be made cheaper)
    Current biodiesel has limited usefulness. It causes more non-CO2 pollution than normal diesel and if fertiliser is used and diesel run farm vehicles and diesel delivery trucks are used can end up with more oil being used than if it had just been directly used, which also means more CO2.
    However the next generation of biofuels will use the parts of plants that we don't eat which means it will be much more viable.
    The electric technology that I'm talking about that just needs to get cheaper is the stuff used by Tesla Motors.

    Also any policy that promotes the buying of new cars causes more pollution then it saves since many models of cars cause more pollution in their production than they "save" in their lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seos View Post
    Electric cars aren't way off they're just still small and not pretty. Bio-fuel that is actually useful is about 5-10 years off, same with really good electric.(Already invented just has to be made cheaper)
    Current biodiesel has limited usefulness. It causes more non-CO2 pollution than normal diesel and if fertiliser is used and diesel run farm vehicles and diesel delivery trucks are used can end up with more oil being used than if it had just been directly used, which also means more CO2.
    However the next generation of biofuels will use the parts of plants that we don't eat which means it will be much more viable.
    All new cars will be small. Where is the point in wasting energy carrying unnecessary weight around?

    Current Biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) has plenty usefulness. I have been using SVO in my car for years.

    It causes LESS CO2 pollution than mineral diesel because the CO2 it emits was taken up by last years crop, and next years crop will take it back up. It creates a CO2 cycle instead of emitting new CO2 into the athmosphere.

    The next generation of biofuels will use the parts of the plants which we currently return to the soil as fertiliser - meaning we will need to make fertilisers out of fossil fuels instead.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    My point about bio diesel is that it is a quick fix - create jobs, cut imports of oil - which eventually we won't be able to afford and have some impact on the environment - you can argue about the extent of the environmental gain. A tax cut on diesel cars at present will not be noticed by the govt. so it is an opportunity to make a switch - one man's difficulty is another's opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPN View Post
    All new cars will be small. Where is the point in wasting energy carrying unnecessary weight around?

    Current Biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) has plenty usefulness. I have been using SVO in my car for years.

    It causes LESS CO2 pollution than mineral diesel because the CO2 it emits was taken up by last years crop, and next years crop will take it back up. It creates a CO2 cycle instead of emitting new CO2 into the athmosphere.

    The next generation of biofuels will use the parts of the plants which we currently return to the soil as fertiliser - meaning we will need to make fertilisers out of fossil fuels instead.
    Not all new cars will be small since not everyone wants a small car, the total amount of small cars will be greater and the energy efficiency of all cars will increase but not all new cars will be small (unless the government forces it)
    My point was it can lead to more CO2 being produced. What I mean by limited usefulness is that it cuts down only a little on the total amount of oil used and the amount of CO2 released. Electric cars are a better (but of course not perfect either) alternative, especially where a household has two or more cars.

    The next generation of bio-fuels as you point out isn't perfect either but needing to replace fertiliser is much easier then trying to replace food.


    My point about bio diesel is that it is a quick fix - create jobs, cut imports of oil - which eventually we won't be able to afford and have some impact on the environment - you can argue about the extent of the environmental gain. A tax cut on diesel cars at present will not be noticed by the govt. so it is an opportunity to make a switch - one man's difficulty is another's opportunity.
    If you want to incentivise diesel then raise petrol a bit and cut diesel a bit instead of just cutting diesel. I agree with encouraging biodiesel plants.
    But the point I'm making is that bio-diesel might not be the best way forward and that we should examine what is before going for the wrong quick fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    My point about bio diesel is that it is a quick fix - create jobs, cut imports of oil - which eventually we won't be able to afford and have some impact on the environment - you can argue about the extent of the environmental gain. A tax cut on diesel cars at present will not be noticed by the govt. so it is an opportunity to make a switch - one man's difficulty is another's opportunity.
    Nope!

    Refineries are designed to optimise production of either petrol or diesel. We are now up against the global capacity for diesel optimisation - hence the reason that diesel prices went higher than petrol prices in recent years.

    The Government already put an extra 8c on petrol in the last budget, and there is excise remission on both SVO and Biodiesel. The new VRT rates are also heavily weighted in favour of compression ignition (diesel) engines.

    There isn't much point in doing more at the moment.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seos View Post
    Not all new cars will be small since not everyone wants a small car, the total amount of small cars will be greater and the energy efficiency of all cars will increase but not all new cars will be small (unless the government forces it)
    Why will people want to waste expensive energy dragging unnecessary dead weight around? Manufacturers will not be inclined to waste meagre development budgets on niche vehicles when they can use the money to develop mass market light weight vehicles.


    My point was it can lead to more CO2 being produced. What I mean by limited usefulness is that it cuts down only a little on the total amount of oil used and the amount of CO2 released. Electric cars are a better (but of course not perfect either) alternative, especially where a household has two or more cars.
    A hectare of Rape yields 1.2 tonnes of SVO. The growing, harvesting, processing and delivery of the SVO consume 0.2 tonnes, leaving a net 1 tonne available to replace mineral oil in other applications.



    The next generation of bio-fuels as you point out isn't perfect either but needing to replace fertiliser is much easier then trying to replace food.
    So then you create shortages of fertiliser, driving up the price, which causes food producers to use less, reducing the amount of food being produced.

    2nd generation biofuels are vapourware. They are hype. They get great exposure in the media due to massive PR budgets, but they will not deliver.



    If you want to incentivise diesel then raise petrol a bit and cut diesel a bit instead of just cutting diesel. I agree with encouraging biodiesel plants.
    But the point I'm making is that bio-diesel might not be the best way forward and that we should examine what is before going for the wrong quick fix.
    SVO is the right option.

    Biodiesel requires the use of Methanol to remove the glycerine. Methanol is toxic as ******************************.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    What exactly is SVO? how does it differ from biodiesel? I'm more interested in reducing our dependence on imported fuel, current low prices will not last beyond the current U.S. recession
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    What exactly is SVO? how does it differ from biodiesel? I'm more interested in reducing our dependence on imported fuel, current low prices will not last beyond the current U.S. recession
    As explained above, SVO is Straight Vegetable Oil. Biodiesel is SVO with the Glycerine removed. Methanol is one of the catalysts used in the process.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPN View Post
    As explained above, SVO is Straight Vegetable Oil. Biodiesel is SVO with the Glycerine removed. Methanol is one of the catalysts used in the process.
    Can SVO be blended with conventional diesel? My idea would be to sell a blend as I can't see us producing enough to completely displace diesel. Again, I'm talking short term, quick fix. The reason for cutting tax on diesel cars is to increase the market for them, at present, they're uneconomical unless you do high mileage.
    Beer is proof that God loves us - Benjamin Franklin

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