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Thread: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of Ukraine?

  1. #1
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    Default Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of Ukraine?

    With the US giving political signals to Georgia to "resolve" "its" internal issues, and the resulting failure of Saakashvili's blunt military approach, have the Russians been backed into a corner on the Crimea and "Russian" Ukraine?

    While US and EU foreign offices have been at pains to keep Georgia and the Ukraine at arms length on NATO membership, some intemperate Western political leaders have been tactically stoking the issue up. But looking at the endgame right at the beginning, who realistically believes the Russian Navy in the Crimea can end up in NATO territory?

    Should the West be backing off on (i) the "perfectly-formed-little-democracy" rhetoric on Georgia and (ii) offers of NATO membership to everyone who hates Russia, before a real East/West border issue flares up within the Ukraine?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    No- quite the opposite.
    When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators

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    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?
    My meaning is that the West needs to be resolute and firm. They should allow Georgia and Ukraine into Nato if they want to enter, and they should not be pushed around by Russia. Russia is calcuating (thusfar correctly) that the West does not have the backbone to face them down on this or take any serious risks for the likes of Georgia. if they are this agressive now, it will get even worse as time passes and they can continue to build up their army. Now they are militarily weak and they know it- if a move has to be made, then now is the time.
    When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators

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    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    How can the West make any military moves on Russia without facing the consequences....It is silly and stupid to assume that Russia is weak at this moment in time...Russia like the USA has weapons of mass destruction, enough to destroy one another many times over.....A confrontation betweenh Russia or the USA would hasten the end of the world as we know it.....

    Russia must be allowed to protect Russian interests in the same way as the USA protects theirs.....taking sides in this conflict of interests is not in the best interest of Europeans ...There can only be losers, no winners.....Lets use diplomacy and tact as a means of moving forward in these dangerous times....there are no good guys in this conflict of interests.

    The Russians and the Americans must come to terms with their military strenghts and accept that power and strength brings responsibilities....We the little people must keep our distance but at the same time remind the super powers of their responsibilities.

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    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?
    My meaning is that the West needs to be resolute and firm. They should allow Georgia and Ukraine into Nato if they want to enter, and they should not be pushed around by Russia. Russia is calcuating (thusfar correctly) that the West does not have the backbone to face them down on this or take any serious risks for the likes of Georgia. if they are this agressive now, it will get even worse as time passes and they can continue to build up their army. Now they are militarily weak and they know it- if a move has to be made, then now is the time.
    OK! It's an argument.

    Wasn't the West aggressive though in allowing all those eastern EU and NATO accessions in the last years (which I actually have nothing against)? Aren't the West being especially aggressive in sponsoring for NATO membership countries with substantial Russian or pro-Russian populations (esp. Ukraine)? Isn't the West simply precipitating splits in those countries which could lead to civil wars, if not outright takeover by the Russians? Remember parts of Ukraine were part of Russia proper for a couple of hundred years.

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    Politics.ie Member Vega1447's Avatar
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    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?
    My meaning is that the West needs to be resolute and firm. They should allow Georgia and Ukraine into Nato if they want to enter, and they should not be pushed around by Russia. Russia is calcuating (thusfar correctly) that the West does not have the backbone to face them down on this or take any serious risks for the likes of Georgia. if they are this agressive now, it will get even worse as time passes and they can continue to build up their army. Now they are militarily weak and they know it- if a move has to be made, then now is the time.
    Hey lowtax, if Ireland join NATO ("resolute and firm", eh??) you can say bye to low taxes.

    Or are you just a NATO groupie?

    "The West needs to do ...."

    Do you mean the US, Britain, France????? With little Ireland cheering them on?
    My Avatar is the FF logo INVERTED symbolising contempt for the FF Party and its members.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogtrotter
    How can the West make any military moves on Russia without facing the consequences....It is silly and stupid to assume that Russia is weak at this moment in time...Russia like the USA has weapons of mass destruction, enough to destroy one another many times over.....A confrontation betweenh Russia or the USA would hasten the end of the world as we know it.....

    Russia must be allowed to protect Russian interests in the same way as the USA protects theirs.....taking sides in this conflict of interests is not in the best interest of Europeans ...There can only be losers, no winners.....Lets use diplomacy and tact as a means of moving forward in these dangerous times....there are no good guys in this conflict of interests.

    The Russians and the Americans must come to terms with their military strenghts and accept that power and strength brings responsibilities....We the little people must keep our distance but at the same time remind the super powers of their responsibilities.
    Fair enough...use diplomacy...great....I am all for that. So what if they make more demands ad get aggressive toward EU members? What then?
    When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators

  9. #9

    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vega1447
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?
    My meaning is that the West needs to be resolute and firm. They should allow Georgia and Ukraine into Nato if they want to enter, and they should not be pushed around by Russia. Russia is calcuating (thusfar correctly) that the West does not have the backbone to face them down on this or take any serious risks for the likes of Georgia. if they are this agressive now, it will get even worse as time passes and they can continue to build up their army. Now they are militarily weak and they know it- if a move has to be made, then now is the time.
    Hey lowtax, if Ireland join NATO ("resolute and firm", eh??) you can say bye to low taxes.

    Or are you just a NATO groupie?

    "The West needs to do ...."

    Do you mean the US, Britain, France????? With little Ireland cheering them on?
    I meant the West in the sense that Russia means it....NATO.
    I do not recall being a cheerleader for nato....in fact, I would oppose ireland joining it.....it makes more sense to be freeloaders for the time being....
    When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators

  10. #10

    Default Re: Has US backing of Georgia prompted a breakup of the Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    Quote Originally Posted by McDave
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtaxireland
    No- quite the opposite.
    Pray tell. How?
    My meaning is that the West needs to be resolute and firm. They should allow Georgia and Ukraine into Nato if they want to enter, and they should not be pushed around by Russia. Russia is calcuating (thusfar correctly) that the West does not have the backbone to face them down on this or take any serious risks for the likes of Georgia. if they are this agressive now, it will get even worse as time passes and they can continue to build up their army. Now they are militarily weak and they know it- if a move has to be made, then now is the time.
    OK! It's an argument.

    Wasn't the West aggressive though in allowing all those eastern EU and NATO accessions in the last years (which I actually have nothing against)? Aren't the West being especially aggressive in sponsoring for NATO membership countries with substantial Russian or pro-Russian populations (esp. Ukraine)? Isn't the West simply precipitating splits in those countries which could lead to civil wars, if not outright takeover by the Russians? Remember parts of Ukraine were part of Russia proper for a couple of hundred years.
    Those countries chose to accede...that was not agression. It makes no difference whether the other conturies have Russian populations or not- if they want to join then that's their sovereign decision. If they don't want to join, that is also their sovereign decision. I am not sure how it will pan out, but I know that the Russians will take as much as they can or as much as they are let get away with....
    When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators

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