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Thread: Ireland 1641-1648

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Marie
    In England, the Civil Wars had ended with a Parliamentarian victory. The new Strongman, Oliver Cromwell, was a Puritan; he regarded Catholicism an evil force which had to be destroyed - and he began his war on Catholicism in Ireland.
    Is that a just a quote or a signature?
    A CHILD OF FIVE WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS. SEND SOMEONE TO FETCH A CHILD OF FIVE.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKaiHamPT54

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    I question the claim of 37,000 planters being killed in 1641. The BBC website says it was around 12,000. You have to remember that the total Protestant population in Ulster at this time was around 40,000 anyway.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....

    The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.

    So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond
    If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....

    The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.

    So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...
    Unfortunately history, metaphorically, seems to be repeating itself, though not involving the British this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Marie
    Perhaps we will never know the exact numbers, but 12,000 out of a population of 40,000 is still significant.
    Yes but remember at least as many would have died or been sold into slavery (many in Sweden which was a centre of the slave-trade back then) in the expulsions of Catholics during the Plantations. It's not all one way.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach
    I question the claim of 37,000 planters being killed in 1641. The BBC website says it was around 12,000. You have to remember that the total Protestant population in Ulster at this time was around 40,000 anyway.
    Pro imperialist and somewhat anti nationalist historian richard english has the number as low as 4000
    Most historians now agree that there was an attempt to re write history by some historians during the late and early 17th and 18th centuries in that the amount of planters killed during that period was grossly exaggerated. Most agree this was an attempt to justify cromwells murder campaign which seen the population of ireland almost half.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond
    If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
    it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond
    The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.
    under a brutal military foreign occuaption, some of the native population will always give in.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond

    So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...
    Just a wee reminder why your party has been out of government for longer than any other major european party since 32.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    Quote Originally Posted by Halo
    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond
    If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
    it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
    [quote="The Earl of Desmond"]

    I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

    As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

    So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

    We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

    It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

    As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

    So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

    We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

    It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.
    FG's biggest Achilles Heel is Labour. People know if they vote FG they will get Labour.

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    The following extract is taken from the book "The Irish Race" by Seamus MacManus

    For purpose, now, of inciting the English at home to wipe out the Irish and thus provide more estates for the covetous in Britain,there was invented a story of fearful massacre of almost all of the protestants of Ireland,on the night of the rising.Not only did the eager English readily believe it,but after a while the parties in Ireland who started the story almost came to believe it themselves.And many thousands of good sincere Irish protestants and many thousands of Ardent English.
    Many ludicrous estimates were given to the world by both innocent and crafty Englishmen and Anglo-Irish.

    The Rev. Ferdinand Warner,protestant minister in his history of the Irish Rebellion written shortly after the event says "it is easy enough to demonstarte the falsehood of the relation of every English Historian of the rebellion"

    This long cherished and widely advertised great popish massacre may be disposed in the words of Rev. Dr. Taylor "The Irish massacre of 1641 has been a phrase so often repeated even in books of education that one can scarcely conceal his suprise when he learns that the tale is apocryphal as the wildest fiction of romance."

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    Default Re: Ireland 1641-1648

    [quote=The Earl of Desmond]
    Quote Originally Posted by Halo
    Quote Originally Posted by "The Earl of Desmond":29jwvlkc
    If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
    it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl of Desmond



    I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

    As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

    So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

    We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

    It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.
    [/quote:29jwvlkc]
    i made no reference to your family normans roots.
    Anyway without getting into any debate or argument my point is that fianna fail i believe, are no different to your own party but a quote like the above would never come from their mouth as they know it would be no way in their political interests to do so. Whether you blame the Irish or not- this is just another example of your party losing out electorally by championing to some extents the works of pro imperialist revisionists and generally conceding all the patriotic grounds to your only rivals. The only major european party i believe to do so. maybe its a hangover from tthe civil i dont know but until you do address this issue you are going to be out of governmennt a lot longer than you are in it in the coming 50years.

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