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Thread: Will late middle aged gardai hired after age 35 do front line policing or hide under desks?

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    Default Will late middle aged gardai hired after age 35 do front line policing or hide under desks?

    Under EU law the Garda Siochana is forced to drop the 35 years of age upper limit for new recruits under recent legal proceedings on the issue of age discrimination and equality before the law. The result could be dire for Irish front line policing which has been handicapped for decades by slow adoption of civilianisation of admin jobs.

    International experience shows that front line policing with typically extreme levels of job stress from dealing with nasty conflicts and violence is rarely done by police past the age of forty. So police recruited between the ages of 35 to 40 would have a very short career on front line policing. After age forty, most of them would have to be given make work desk jobs since they could not be made redundant under the jobs for life privilege of gardai and civil servants.

    Lifting the 35 years limit could add enormously to policing costs by requiring a lot more police for the same level of front line policing. Consider the pension entitlements of those older gardai-retirement at half pay of 35,000 euros today multiplied by life expectancy of maybe 20 years equals 700,000, plus increases in the pension in line with the pay of the job rank once held.

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    Politics.ie Member The OD's Avatar
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    Well that's me convinced so.

    #Eirexit now!

    No grey garda!!!!!

    Let's all raise a glass of frog milk to the ancient festival of Fargaltide!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patslatt1 View Post
    Under EU law the Garda Siochana is forced to drop the 35 years of age upper limit for new recruits under recent legal proceedings on the issue of age discrimination and equality before the law. The result could be dire for Irish front line policing which has been handicapped for decades by slow adoption of civilianisation of admin jobs.

    International experience shows that front line policing with typically extreme levels of job stress from dealing with nasty conflicts and violence is rarely done by police past the age of forty. So police recruited between the ages of 35 to 40 would have a very short career on front line policing. After age forty, most of them would have to be given make work desk jobs since they could not be made redundant under the jobs for life privilege of gardai and civil servants.

    Lifting the 35 years limit could add enormously to policing costs by requiring a lot more police for the same level of front line policing. Consider the pension entitlements of those older gardai-retirement at half pay of 35,000 euros today multiplied by life expectancy of maybe 20 years equals 700,000, plus increases in the pension in line with the pay of the job rank once held.
    Is it possible to have fitness level requirements for recruits that would be difficult for older applicants to meet? Or state that all new recruits must spend a minimum number of years on front line duties? How about front-load pensions to years spent in on-the-beat policing, or have a lower basic salary with front line duties getting a premium? (Structured to average to the same overall payroll budget.) If you can't go on a patrol and deal with the local thugs, you don't get the benefits.

    As it is, gardai are allowed to retire too early as not all jobs are on the front line anyway. Shouldn't they do office work until the state retirement age instead of having to recruit so many civilian staff? If they're not capable of straightforward tasks in say, call handling, filing reports, all sorts of logistics and management, dealing with other emergency services or the courts, etc. then what use are they in the force in the first place? It's not Miami Vice.

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    There will be some benefits to it. Hire someone who has a proper IT or accounting background and a lot of investigations around things like child pornography and fraud will be able to run more smoothly. The current age limit actively hinders these.

    They will also still be able to include a fitness test, which will get rid of a lot of the over 35s who wouldn't be up for the job.

    I'd also note that the sky didn't fall in when female gardai and old gardai were permitted.

    Really the biggest concern here is pension liability.
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    Politics.ie Member The OD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by locke View Post
    There will be some benefits to it. Hire someone who has a proper IT or accounting background and a lot of investigations around things like child pornography and fraud will be able to run more smoothly. The current age limit actively hinders these.

    They will also still be able to include a fitness test, which will get rid of a lot of the over 35s who wouldn't be up for the job.

    I'd also note that the sky didn't fall in when female gardai and old gardai were permitted.

    Really the biggest concern here is pension liability.
    Good post above. Serious lack of proper IT & forensic accounting types of policing with AGS and I believe those working in the area of the likes of child abuse imagery can only do so for so long before having to move to another area due to the trauma of having to look at that sort of horror for any length of time?

    Plenty older members could be doing, including community policing like going to schools or just being visible in their area? Not all policing (directed at OP, not you Locke) is Starsky & Hutch style car chases and cool leather jackets.
    Let's all raise a glass of frog milk to the ancient festival of Fargaltide!

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    Politics.ie Member statsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by __e621 View Post
    Is it possible to have fitness level requirements for recruits that would be difficult for older applicants to meet? Or state that all new recruits must spend a minimum number of years on front line duties? How about front-load pensions to years spent in on-the-beat policing, or have a lower basic salary with front line duties getting a premium? (Structured to average to the same overall payroll budget.) If you can't go on a patrol and deal with the local thugs, you don't get the benefits.

    As it is, gardai are allowed to retire too early as not all jobs are on the front line anyway. Shouldn't they do office work until the state retirement age instead of having to recruit so many civilian staff? If they're not capable of straightforward tasks in say, call handling, filing reports, all sorts of logistics and management, dealing with other emergency services or the courts, etc. then what use are they in the force in the first place? It's not Miami Vice.
    They already have fitness tests for applicants.
    Put a thief among honest men and they will eventually relieve him of his watch. Flann O'Brien

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    Politics.ie Member Dame_Enda's Avatar
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    I dont think 36 yr olds should be treated like they are at death's door. I am in my late 30s thank you very much.
    "A great city is not to be confounded with a populous one." - Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patslatt1 View Post
    Under EU law the Garda Siochana is forced to drop the 35 years of age upper limit for new recruits under recent legal proceedings on the issue of age discrimination and equality before the law. The result could be dire for Irish front line policing which has been handicapped for decades by slow adoption of civilianisation of admin jobs.

    International experience shows that front line policing with typically extreme levels of job stress from dealing with nasty conflicts and violence is rarely done by police past the age of forty. So police recruited between the ages of 35 to 40 would have a very short career on front line policing. After age forty, most of them would have to be given make work desk jobs since they could not be made redundant under the jobs for life privilege of gardai and civil servants.

    Lifting the 35 years limit could add enormously to policing costs by requiring a lot more police for the same level of front line policing. Consider the pension entitlements of those older gardai-retirement at half pay of 35,000 euros today multiplied by life expectancy of maybe 20 years equals 700,000, plus increases in the pension in line with the pay of the job rank once held.
    are you Pc Pat looking to join? good luck with that ,hope you have /had relative(s) there then you might have a good chance.None of our relatives joined , we were considered "unsuitable candidates by the powers that be". I was never interested in sweeping the scum off the street , and trying to teach inbred morons to behave like stable social well behaved persons.
    The apple always fall near the tree and a whole subclass of " inbreds with chips on the shoulders" is non of my concern as I see it as the do-gooders job .

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    Politics.ie Member amsterdemmetje's Avatar
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    Well I'm 51 this Xmas and still bouncing and I can tell you I'm am dam well fitter than a lot of the garda I see and that goes for new recruits.
    Gemakzucht.

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    Quote Originally Posted by __e621 View Post
    Is it possible to have fitness level requirements for recruits that would be difficult for older applicants to meet? Or state that all new recruits must spend a minimum number of years on front line duties? How about front-load pensions to years spent in on-the-beat policing, or have a lower basic salary with front line duties getting a premium? (Structured to average to the same overall payroll budget.) If you can't go on a patrol and deal with the local thugs, you don't get the benefits.

    As it is, gardai are allowed to retire too early as not all jobs are on the front line anyway. Shouldn't they do office work until the state retirement age instead of having to recruit so many civilian staff? If they're not capable of straightforward tasks in say, call handling, filing reports, all sorts of logistics and management, dealing with other emergency services or the courts, etc. then what use are they in the force in the first place? It's not Miami Vice.
    Do you realise that politcians are very reluctant to make any demands on the gardai and would be unlikely to inconvenience them with requests outlined above?

    Recruiting civilian staff recruits people with experience in the administrative jobs available such as ICT and HR. Gardai with policing backgrounds lack experience for such jobs, while their salaries as the highest paid civil servants makes them more expensive than civilian hires. In HR, they would be better at identifying policng skills in job interviews but generally HR staff leave that task to line managers.
    Last edited by Patslatt1; 5th December 2018 at 10:05 PM.

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