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Thread: The Final Solution - what if the Third Reich had defeated Britain by 1944?

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    Default The Final Solution - what if the Third Reich had defeated Britain by 1944?

    I've just finished reading Robert Harris's alternate history novel, "Fatherland".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)

    The back-story of the novel includes the starving of Britain into surrender by 1944 by means of a U-Boat campaign that followed the discovery by the Nazis that the Enigma code had been broken.

    It is mentioned in the novel that Edward VIII returned to Britain to reclaim the throne, that George VI went into exile in Canada and died in 1952 and that, in 1964, before US President Joseph Kennedy senior's scheduled visit to Germany, Elizabeth II is still recognised by Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US as the rightful British monarch.

    But there is no mention in "Fatherland" of whether or not Britain was occupied by the Nazis after its surrender (The mention of an SS academy at Oxford doesn't necessarily indicate that Britain was occupied in this alternate history because the appeasers, e.g. Lord Halifax, might have formed a government and provided benefits to the Reich, thus making occupation unnecessary and possibly preventing deportation of Jews from Britain).

    The Wannsee Conference is featured prominently in the plot of the novel.

    In Harris's alternate history, would Britain, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Spain and Portugal have maintained nominal sovereignty without deporting their Jewish residents "to the East"?

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    Politics.ie Member irishmaninsalem's Avatar
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    would Ireland, have maintained nominal sovereignty

    Ireland would have done what the Germans told them to do in 1944 or today

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    Politics.ie Member Catalpast's Avatar
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    Looks like Germany won the Battle for Europe!

    The Coming Europe

    by Joseph Goebbels


    I welcome the opportunity to speak to you on a number of questions that in my view must be openly discussed if relations between the Reich and the Protectorate are to be improved. I believe it necessary to do so now, despite the war. I fear that once the war is over, we will not be able to discus these matters as calmly as we now can.
    As intelligent people, you know that the greatest events in the history of Europe are now taking place. I am firmly convinced — how could it be otherwise! — that things will turn out to our advantage.
    When England falls, we will have the chance to reorganize Europe in a way that befits the social, economic, and technical possibilities of the twentieth century.

    http://research.calvin.edu/german-pr...ive/goeb31.htm
    If you can convince a People to engage in the mass elimination of their own offspring - you can probably get them to do anything...http://irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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    Politics.ie Member paulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    Looks like Germany won the Battle for Europe!

    The Coming Europe

    by Joseph Goebbels


    I welcome the opportunity to speak to you on a number of questions that in my view must be openly discussed if relations between the Reich and the Protectorate are to be improved. I believe it necessary to do so now, despite the war. I fear that once the war is over, we will not be able to discus these matters as calmly as we now can.
    As intelligent people, you know that the greatest events in the history of Europe are now taking place. I am firmly convinced — how could it be otherwise! — that things will turn out to our advantage.
    When England falls, we will have the chance to reorganize Europe in a way that befits the social, economic, and technical possibilities of the twentieth century.

    http://research.calvin.edu/german-pr...ive/goeb31.htm
    He just didn't realize at the time that the best way to defeat Britain was not to attack, but leave them alone until they turn on themselves and devour themselves from within
    There is no Keyser Soze

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    Politics.ie Member McTell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulp View Post
    He just didn't realize at the time that the best way to defeat Britain was not to attack, but leave them alone until they turn on themselves and devour themselves from within

    ..and the best way to do that was to attack the middle east in late 1940. No oil, no canal. They had gone bankrupt by december 1940. Instead hitler went for the oil in russia, a much harder nut to crack.

    Bombing uk cities instead of ships and ports was another mistake.
    McTell tCurrently, I am missing certain information. That has been requested and will be added as soon as it is available available availableavailable

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    Robert Harris disowned the film adaptation of his novel after the premise was changed without his agreement.

    The PoD (Point of Divergence) in the novel is a German breakthrough in Operation Blue (a smaller component of Operation Barbarosa). The Axis military alliance succeed in gaining access to the oilfields of the Caucasus mountains (to the detriment of the USSR). This turns the tide in the war, and the Third Reich get to bring into reality their New Order Europe.

    However in the movie, the PoD is the failure of the D-Day landings. Harris argued this simplistic take on WWII would merely reinforce the already widespread American-centric view of the war. The Studio ignored his criticism and went ahead with the presentation of the US invasion of Europe from Britain as a liberation of almost predestined proportions. There is a strong argument that by 1944 (D-Day) the 3rd Reich was beaten. The Nazi empire certainly was on the slide. (From day 1 they were over-stretched and over-confident).

    If youse like Allo-History, as the kids call it, Harris' Fatherland is small potatoes. Guy Saville's "Afrika Reich" is gripping. And of course, K Dick's The Man in the High Castle. Season 3 of the tv series of High Castle is starting on Amazon Prime at the weekend (pls don't sub on a/c of the show, it's on loads of pirate sites across the net).

    K. Dick's book is by far the best as you are following the different competing power centres in Germany's Ruling Class vying for power. It's like The West Wing in a nightmare world.
    "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by sword. The other is by debt." - John Adams, second president of the US

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidcameron View Post
    I've just finished reading Robert Harris's alternate history novel, "Fatherland".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)

    The back-story of the novel includes the starving of Britain into surrender by 1944 by means of a U-Boat campaign that followed the discovery by the Nazis that the Enigma code had been broken.

    It is mentioned in the novel that Edward VIII returned to Britain to reclaim the throne, that George VI went into exile in Canada and died in 1952 and that, in 1964, before US President Joseph Kennedy senior's scheduled visit to Germany, Elizabeth II is still recognised by Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US as the rightful British monarch.

    But there is no mention in "Fatherland" of whether or not Britain was occupied by the Nazis after its surrender (The mention of an SS academy at Oxford doesn't necessarily indicate that Britain was occupied in this alternate history because the appeasers, e.g. Lord Halifax, might have formed a government and provided benefits to the Reich, thus making occupation unnecessary and possibly preventing deportation of Jews from Britain).

    The Wannsee Conference is featured prominently in the plot of the novel.

    In Harris's alternate history, would Britain, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Spain and Portugal have maintained nominal sovereignty without deporting their Jewish residents "to the East"?
    I think the "alternative history" of the Nazis winning the war is an interesting, though some of the scenarios in the books are implausible.

    But history is a set of contingent events, each one dependent on the previous one, and it could have turned out otherwise. Though, in retrospect, once the industrial giant of the USA came into play, Japan was puny by comparison, and Germany quite unimpressive, with an economy the size of Britain's. They could maybe have done more to harness other European nations for war, but that opportunity passed by 1942.

    But, positing a Nazi victory, I think honestly that a surprising number of countries would have surrendered Jews to Hitler - the French and Dutch did, especially non-native ones. The Danes resisted, and most Danish Jews escaped to Sweden, but still some non-Danish Jewish refugees were rounded up and deported. Bulgaria also resisted surrendering Bulgarian Jews, but did not prevent the deportation of non-Bulgarian Jews.

    The Hungarians, notoriously, provided the last big influx into Auschwitz. To do so, the Nazis had to depose the Head of State, Admiral Horthy, and impose a fascist regime. Horthy was anti-semitic, but refused to collude in genocide.

    No country can be particularly proud about its stance on Jewish refugees before or during the war.
    "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence" - David Hume

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    It would not have mattered if Britain had of been defeated by the Nazis has America and Russia would never have given up- even in the Fatherland book it still talks about Russia fighting on to the high cost of the German army-

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    . . . . .
    No country can be particularly proud about its stance on Jewish refugees before or during the war.
    Not entirely true.

    Albania ended up with more Jews after the war than before.

    Goes to show just how bad of a imperial force the Italians were.
    "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by sword. The other is by debt." - John Adams, second president of the US

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    ..and the best way to do that was to attack the middle east in late 1940. No oil, no canal. They had gone bankrupt by december 1940. Instead hitler went for the oil in russia, a much harder nut to crack.

    Bombing uk cities instead of ships and ports was another mistake.
    At the Start of the air campaign over England in 1940 it seemed like the Luftwaffe was on a win by removing the English out of France and bombing RAF bases one after the other in England- but Radar came into play big time for the RAF and then they bombed Berlin which enraged Hitler and that fool fell for it and started bombing English city’s instead and lost-

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