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Thread: Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Second Thread)

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    Politics.ie Member StarryPlough01's Avatar
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    *WARNING* 'Be prepared' to break down ~ in tears ~ after reading my below transcription of Broadsheet on the Telly: Episode 88



    IT'S A BETRAYAL OF SURVIVORS...


    LIVE Broadsheet on the Telly ~~~ Minister for Children Katherine Zappone's Agenda


    I did try to alert readers every step of the way on Castlepollard Original thread [started: 2017-04-15, 12:07] and Castlepollard Second Thread




    Broadsheet.ie | A News Source For The Bewildered



    Scroll to 49:38








    'Broadsheet on the Telly: Episode 88'


    Guests: Mr Bernard Purcell, Editor: The Irish World live from London

    And Activist Solicitor Kevin Higgins



    *Resignation of Paul Redmond from Mother and Babies Collaborative Forum headed up by civil servant Gerry Kearney


    Gerry Kearney:

    Former secretary general to chair mother-and-baby home forum


    *Redress and Memorialisation of Mother and Baby Homes



    Presenter John Preposterous Ryan:


    Paul Redmond (CMABS) said Minister Zappone had let him down (Zappone had tricked him) and survivors down.



    Activist Solicitor Kevin Higgins:


    On 23 October 2018 Minister Katherine Zappone's press release announced there will be exhumation and excavation of the bodies at Tuam BUT announced at same time they would require legislation.

    Go back to first Sunday June 2017 RTE 'This Week' programme on Sunday. In the course of an interview with John Burke ~~~ Kevin Higgins firmly expressed view that government did not have the power or legal capacity to excavate.

    We sent somebody in to meet him [John Burke RTE news?] on 22 October, the night before Zappone's announcement [press release] and asked him 3/4 times if they had ever received advice from the Attorney General that they could do this He ummed and ached but ultimately after a good deal of gibberish, he said that they would probably need new legislation.
    .

    So essentially Paul Redmond's realisation is probably based on the fact that he now accepts that in the case of Tuam THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH TUAM WILL BE EXCAVATED IS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT HAS ENACTED LEGISLATION TO DISPENSE WITH THE NEED FOR AN INQUEST.


    I find Paul Redmond's language to be actually temperate.


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    Yes.


    Kevin Higgins:


    I would have used much stronger language.


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    OK.


    Kevin Higgins:


    I have used strong language in respect of Zappone.

    [52:50] [?] response immediately after that announcement [press release of 23.10.2018] was her decision was a vile and callous one. And Paul Redmond has echoed that today. It is vile and callous.


    In a sense, IT IS A CONSPIRACY, AND IN MY VIEW, *A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY TO CONCEAL THE ACTUAL TRUTH OF TUAM, AND THE OTHER MOTHER AND BABY HOMES.*


    I regret Paul put himself through that in the past year. He has expressed regret that he didn't listen to other people when he was invited to join [The Bethany Home Survivors group '98 ~~ Derek Leinster].


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    Derek is with the The Bethany Home Group, which is the Protestant home, they were not included for some extremely bureaucratic reason. Sorry Kevin, go on.


    [ STARRY: To clarify, the Bethany Home Survivors group '98 *BOYCOTTED THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM* ~

    Mother and baby home activist refuses to join selection panel for survivors' forum

    Bethany Home was excluded from The Residential Institutions Redress Scheme established in 2002, following the shocking findings of the Ryan Report (industrial schools, reformatories…) ~

    s a Protestant - Independent.ie
    Bethany survivor helps identify more unmarked graves ]



    Kevin Higgins: Continues...


    And there was no justifiable reason for their exclusion and Derek's personal history is an extremely moving one.

    [54:00] I think Zappone offered to take on this poisoned chalice to stay in cabinet when there was a change of regime at the top with the ending of [Enda] Kenny's reign. [Katherine Zappone:] "Dear Leo, who else will take this $hit on? And I will sort this out."


    A DEAL HAS BEEN DONE IN THE CASE OF TUAM WITH THE BON SECOURS. [ALLEGEDLY] PRONE WAS INVOLVED IN THAT [TERRY PRONE'S PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRM ~~ CARR COMMUNICATIONS].

    THE FIGURE OF €2.5 MILLION WAS OUT THERE AT THE SAME TIME KATHERINE ZAPPONE WENT RUNNING UP TO POPE FRANCIS WITH HER LITTLE NOTE.

    ——> THAT FIGURE OF €2.5 MILLION WAS KNOWN TO ME PRIOR TO THE ANNOUNCEMENT ON 23 OCTOBER [PRESS RELEASE].


    John Preposterous Ryan:

    Yeah.


    Kevin Higgins:


    IT IS CRIMINAL, WE CAN'T ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN. And if I can just introduce a lighter note John.


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    Sure.


    Kevin Higgins:


    Perhaps one lighter note. You know that horrible moral dilemma [The Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4) - I used to listen to Michael Buerk on Radio 4…. You know this terrible sort of 'delay. ' You are standing on a river bank at a mill race, when your own two children are in there [river], and you can only save one. And what you'd do? If Prone, Fitzgerald and Zappone were in there. I'd know what I'd do. I would take a long walk down to the Nag's Head, and order a pint and figure what my options were.


    John Preposterous Ryan: Chuckles.


    Kevin Higgins:


    That's the nicest way I can put it.


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    I was reading the Minutes of the Collaborative Forum today.


    Collaborative Forum Meetings | dcya.gov.ie 2018

    Minutes of Meeting Thursday 12 September 2018, 10.30am, City Hall Dublin
    https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mo...12Sept2018.pdf

    Minutes of Meeting Thursday 26 July 2018, 12pm, Government Buildings
    https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mo...Mins26July.pdf


    There's only been two meetings in fact. It sounds more impressive than it actually was. The language that is used in terms of the victims and survivors is incredibly ornate and very difficult to read in fact.


    There's a kind of New Age storytelling. We'll do this through storytelling. It's very much like the McAleese Report into the Magdalenes. LET'S HEAR THE VICTIMS, BUT MEANWHILE, WE WILL SCREW THE VICTIMS.


    Kevin Higgins:


    Incidentally, Zappone couldn't give away places on that Collaborative Forum.


    John Preposterous Ryan:


    There are some good people on it.


    Kevin Higgins:


    Sure. Geoff Shannon is a great guy, but we didn't need an DAMN REPORT from Geoff Shannon. There was nothing Geoff Shannon told us about what needs to be done in respect of Tuam or anywhere else. It all speaks for itself. [57:32]


    It's 18 months ago … attended a meeting for the FIRST time. [NAME is indistinct ~ microphone distortion in background] She [Catherine Corless] announced that Katherine Zappone had invited her to join this [Collaborative] Forum. She openly asked people for advice. I was sitting next to her, and she asked me what did I think? I said, CATHERINE, I think the Minister would prefer to have you inside the tent pissing out, then have you outside the tent pissing in.



    [STARRY: YOU CAN HEAR 'PREPOSTEROUS' CHUCKLING}


    THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS DOING ['inside the tent pissing out']. ZAPPONE KEPT CATHERINE CORLESS CLOSE.



    John Preposterous Ryan:


    Yeah.


    Kevin Higgins:


    VERY CLOSE DURING THOSE PROCESSES. NONE OF THE SURVIVORS GROUPS HAD THE CONTACT REGULARLY WITH ZAPPONE THAT CATHERINE CORLESS HAD. MY VIEW IS THIS DOES NOT REFLECT BADLY ON HER, AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT WE OWE HER. SHE WAS USED.


    WITH THE DEAL ANNOUNCED ON 23 OCTOBER 2018, WHAT ZAPPONE REALLY WANTED THAT DAY WAS CATHERINE CORLESS' ENDORSEMENT.


    [59:08] FOR 3.WEEKS, THE GUY THAT RUNS THE MID MORNING PROGRAMME ON GALWAY BAY FM KEITH FINNEGAN... I HAD PUT CERTAIN QUESTIONS TO ZAPPONE.


    [STARRY: HIGGINS WOULD HAVE SUBMITTED IN ADVANCE HIS QUESTIONS ~ MEANT TO BE ANSWERED BY ZAPPONE ~ TO THE PRODUCER OF GALWAY BAY FM].


    KEVIN HIGGINS SAID: 'KEITH FINNEGAN TRIED FOR 3, 4, 5, 6 WEEKS FOR HER.'


    [STARRY: THIS WOULD BE KEITH FINNEGAN'S ATTEMPTS TO TRY AND GET KATHERINE ZAPPONE ON THE PROGRAMME TO ANSWER KEVIN HIGGINS' QUESTIONS].


    Kevin Higgins:


    THE DAY AFTER THAT ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE [23.10.2018] SHE GOES ON TO THAT PROGRAMME FOR A DOUBLE ACT WITH KEITH FINNEGAN FOR AS LONG AS HE WANTED. EVERYBODY HAS BEEN SOLD A BILL OF GOODS.


    [STARRY: I DO KNOW THAT MS CATHERINE CORLESS WAS ON RADIO PROGRAMME WITH MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE, AFTER THE 23.10.18 PRESS RELEASE, WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF BACKSLAPPING!! ~~~ I WILL TRANSCRIBE AND UPDATE LATER).


    Kevin Higgins:


    Catherine Corless has certainly been misused. Possibly she is coming to that conclusion.


    There is absolutely no doubt that Paul Redmond's language today is nothing less than what Zappone deserves … in my view … he was always prepared to collaborate and work with anybody. Whereas my journey in terms of Mother and Baby Homes has only been over less than 5 years now. Paul's journey has been his lifetime. HE IS A CHILD OF THE CASTLEPOLLARD HOME. And he has informed himself and worked extremely hard on this for perhaps 20 years.

    ….


    As Bernard remarked the last time he was on. [Bernard Purcell Editor The Irish World] It's a war of attrition, they want as many of the survivors, witnesses, families to die. They really do want that. [1:00:53] Delay, delay.

    I CANNOT ACCEPT THE BONA FIDES OF ZAPPONE OR THIS GOVERNMENT IN ANY WAY. I DO NOT ACCEPT THAT THEY HAVE AT ANY TIME ACTED IN GOOD FAITH. I DON'T TRUST THEM.

    As I said before, i have met Katherine Zappone on a good number of occasions now and I have generally shaken hands with her. But I advice anybody else who finds themselves in that position to count their fingers afterwards. And I really do mean that.


    Bernard Purcell enters discussion at this point. Kevin Higgins has a smile on his face at Bernard's introductory sentence (Kevin needed to laugh after the deep betrayal he outlines above). At one stage, Kevin Higgins' body language where he unconsciously places his hands on his cheeks, reminded me of the expressionist painting of The Scream by Edvard Munch [1893].




    I will continue this later. Have to publish now, no time to re-read.
    Last edited by StarryPlough01; 9th November 2018 at 11:31 AM. Reason: 23.10.18

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    Politics.ie Member StarryPlough01's Avatar
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    Adoption rights campaigner Paul Redmond has resigned from Minister Zappone's Mother and Baby Homes Collaborative Forum, calling it “a cynical, time-wasting farce”


    Friday, November 09, 2018 - 05:35 AM

    Rights campaigner quits ‘cynical’ mother and baby homes forum | Irish Examiner


    By Conall Ó Fátharta




    The forum was established in July to facilitate dialogue and action on issues of concern to former residents of mother and baby homes. The forum has 20 members and is divided into three sub-committees examining specific issues.

    Mr Redmond, who was born in 1964 in Castlepollard Mother and Baby Home in Co Westmeath, is chairman of the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors (CMABS).

    In resigning, he said the forum was of no benefit to survivors.




    Starry: There must be a few vacancies open now.

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    Minister Zappone and Government want NEW LEGISLATION IN ORDER TO EXCLUDE CORONIAL INVOLVEMENT AT BEGINNING OF TUAM EXHUMATION



    Here's the Mutual Appreciation Society of *Non Survivor Ms Catherine Corless* and Minister for Children Katherine Zappone



    LISTEN TO POLITICAL ANIMAL ZAPPONE ARGUING THAT NEW LEGISLATION IS NECESSARY. LISTEN TO NON SURVIVOR CATHERINE CORLESS CLUMSILY SAYING THAT WHEN THEY FIND "INJURIES", THEY WILL CALL IN THE CORONER



    DEAR CATHERINE CORLESS, THE FORENSIC EXCAVATORS WON'T BE LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF FOUL PLAY. SO, HOW WILL THE EXCAVATORS RECOGNISE INJURIES? AND IF THEY DO, WHAT IS THE PROCEDURE FOR PROTECTING EVIDENCE?



    THE CORONER SHOULD BE DIRECTLY INVOLVED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE EXHUMATION.



    IT'S CLEAR THAT THE INTENT OF NEW LEGISLATION WILL BE TO MAKE IT LEGAL TO DO THE EXHUMATION WITHOUT THE CORONER'S INVOLVEMENT.


    THE LEGISLATION WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR EVIDENCE TO SLIP BETWEEN THE CRACKS SO THOSE RESPONSIBLE ARE NEVER HELD TO ACCOUNT
    .




    Podcast of The Keith Finnegan Show – Wednesday October 24th 2018 THIS HAPPENED THE DAY AFTER KATHERINE ZAPPONE'S PRESS RELEASE.



    October 24, 2018


    Podcast of The Keith Finnegan Show - Wednesday October 24th 2018 - Galway Bay FM

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    Politics.ie Member StarryPlough01's Avatar
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    I posted below on another thread, but it's applicable in this spot.


    Quote Originally Posted by StarryPlough01 View Post


    DDarcy,

    The buck stops with Taoiseach Leo Varadkar. I want to know whose sphere of influence is protecting Minister Zappone from investigative journalism? I am wondering why there isn't more criticism in the press especially considering all the money she has wasted in implementing her delay tactics. And announcing new legislation to protect her friends from the FALLOUT at Tuam.

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    Devastating News... Hear Ye, Hear Ye...



    I'm utterly heartbroken... My worst fears have been confirmed about Minister for Children Katherine Zappone and Government's SNEAKY PLAN TO DENY JUSTICE TO THE VICTIMS OF TUAM WITH THEIR *NEW LEGISLATION*



    THERE WILL BE "NO INVESTIGATION IN TO THE CAUSE OF DEATH OF A SINGLE CHILD AT TUAM"





    ACTIVIST SOLICITOR KEVIN HIGGINS ~~~


    Kevin Higgins on Twitter:


    Kevin Higgins‏ @Boglawyer



    #TuamBabies the actual position at present is that Zappone & the Government propose to introduce special legislation to avoid the legal requirement for an Inquest & in return the Bon Secours contribute to the cost - so no investigation into the cause of death of a single child


    5:37 AM - 12 Nov 2018




    STARRY:


    I'm still gobsmacked about the mainstream media not asking Minister for Children Zappone and the government the hard questions.


    These ^ SNOWFLAKE journalists ^ need to do their job.




    *The Collaborating MAINSTREAM PRESS and Chatterings of Minister for Children Zappone's trained Monkey* ~~~


    I've been pleading with journalists to ask probing questions for over a week. The silence from the collaborating press and the chatterings of Zappone's trained monkey left me IN TEARS.




    And a very special thank you to alternative news *Broadsheet on the Telly* who actually do their job, so people like me (Starry) can learn the truth about the ROTTEN TO THE CORE government.


    John 'Preposterous' Ryan and Crew, take a bow!

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    And the Icing on the Cake for 'heroine' Catherine Corless...



    Catherine Corless has been Flooded with Offers to be HOLLYWOOD'S NEW IDOL OF MILLIONS



    Irish World in Britain



    Exhumations at other mother-and-baby homes may follow Tuam - The Irish World




    Such has been her heroism and stubbornness in championing the cause of Tuam Mother and Babies that the 62-year old’s role could be translated to the silver screen.

    Ms Corless admitted that she has been flooded with movie and book offers. True to form, she has stressed that she will not be happy to sign off on anything until the truth is out on what happened during those bleak times with the home.


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    This will never be over.

    For too many have never received any acknowledgement from the State for what they have suffered and I don't know enough about the bespoke legislation or the advices from AG which prompted such, but suffice to say I cannot understand the reluctance of the Coroner to do his/her duty. Human remains found in any location demand a narrative in as far as possible, as to the circumstances of their death. There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification. We know that for years now - we know the remains date to the home since March last year. Why the delay?

    Presently the Government do not recognise survivors as 'survivors' and are determined to delay until siblings of the disappeared have themselves lost their battle for life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HereWeGoAgain View Post
    This will never be over.

    For too many have never received any acknowledgement from the State for what they have suffered and I don't know enough about the bespoke legislation or the advices from AG which prompted such, but suffice to say I cannot understand the reluctance of the Coroner to do his/her duty. Human remains found in any location demand a narrative in as far as possible, as to the circumstances of their death. There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification. We know that for years now - we know the remains date to the home since March last year. Why the delay?

    Presently the Government do not recognise survivors as 'survivors' and are determined to delay until siblings of the disappeared have themselves lost their battle for life.
    There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification


    - that's not true

    - they were all issued with Death Certs on causes of death


    What more do you think there could be from such a long time ago?
    If you can convince a People to engage in the mass elimination of their own offspring - you can probably get them to do anything...http://irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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    Quote Originally Posted by HereWeGoAgain View Post
    The Minister said re / Legislation:

    - The legal advice of the Attorney General is that the existing legislative pathways are inadequate to sustain exhumations and the related forensic actions in the circumstances of the Tuam site. Before significant works at this site can commence we must ensure that there is a sound legal basis upon which to do so.

    - a small cross-departmental team would be established to advance the preparation of the legislation

    - Departments involved to include Minister for Justice, the Minister for Housing and Local Government and the Minister for Rural Affairs and Community Development.

    - Mentioned the importance of the role of drafting necessary legislation as well as developing project plans to make sure that future actions continue to meet the highest possible standards.

    On the Coroner the Minister said:


    A Coroner may open an inquest into a death, or seek a license for exhumation of remains, only in specified and limited circumstances. Should further information emerge in relation to the remains then it would be a matter for the Coroner to consider what response may be appropriate in accordance with his independent functions. I expect the Coroner to remain is close contact with relevant agencies as matters progress.

    There are death certs for #796 deaths of infants and children; and #6 deaths of mothers.

    A substantial number of remains were found in March 2017 in test excavation under direction from Commission of Investigation, and those were dated to the period of the home (1925-1961).

    Surely, that alone is enough to warrant action by the Coroner? One death would demand such, ten deaths would determine it as a mass grave, why the delay?


    Bespoke legislation being drawn up which is unique to Tuam - does that mean that it cannot be used for other such excavations in the future?

    Are there international comparsions where we can gain knowledge?

    I am fearful of the Government, rather than expose what happened and how children died at alarming rates will seek to suppress such information coming forward. Each child who passed away in the Home deserves full forensic investigation of all evidence, both documentary evidence and via the remains themselves, so that the true narrative can be documented and protected.

    25.10.18 Dáil Statements on Tuam Mother and Baby Home Dr Katherine Zappone TD, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs | dcya.gov.ie 2018


    Thank you HWGA. Please read my comments below:



    Starry: -----> Minister for Children Katherine Zappone has never explained her reasons why new legislation is needed.



    - The legal advice of the Attorney General is that the existing legislative pathways are inadequate to sustain exhumations and the related forensic actions in the circumstances of the Tuam site. Before significant works at this site can commence we must ensure that there is a sound legal basis upon which to do so.

    Starry: -----> Why is Minister Zappone being so coy? ^ ^ ^




    Continuing... Minister Katherine Zappone ~


    A Coroner may open an inquest into a death, or seek a license for exhumation of remains, only in specified and limited circumstances. Should further information emerge in relation to the remains then it would be a matter for the Coroner to consider what response may be appropriate in accordance with his independent functions. I expect the Coroner to remain is close contact with relevant agencies as matters progress.


    HereWeGoAgain replies regarding above quoted Coronial Inquest comment made by Minister Zappone ~



    There are death certs for #796 deaths of infants and children; and #6 deaths of mothers.

    A substantial number of remains were found in March 2017 in test excavation under direction from Commission of Investigation, and those were dated to the period of the home (1925-1961).

    Surely, that alone is enough to warrant action by the Coroner? One death would demand such, ten deaths would determine it as a mass grave, why the delay?



    Starry: -----> Why is the information already extant not sufficient to warrant action by the coroner for a sustained exhumation?



    *MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE MUST ANSWER.*





    ______________



    Starry:


    I wrote quite a bit in Original [orphan] Castlepollard thread about the mass graves of the disappeared during the Spanish Civil War 1936 - 1939 and ensuing dictatorship of General Francisco Franco. These bodies were covered in quicklime and dispersed throughout the country to avoid identification from acquaintances. This is the same period as Tuam Mother and Baby Home.




    Spanish Mayor Oscar Puente said: 'This is a question of national dignity and human rights rather than opening the wounds of the past. ….' And the city 'could not simply look away'


    Spanish archaeologists dig up more civil war dead | Daily Mail Online



    Authorities in Valladolid paid 25,000 euros (£22,000) employing a professional team to examine the site with work starting in April 2016.



    Mayor Oscar Puente said:


    'This is a question of national dignity and human rights rather than opening the wounds of the past. ….'

    The city 'could not simply look away', said Mayor Oscar Puente as an excavation of the graves revealed up to 200 skeletons, with many more likely hidden below the ground

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification


    - that's not true

    - they were all issued with Death Certs on causes of death


    What more do you think there could be from such a long time ago?
    The deaths were not medically certified.
    The signature on the death certs - many of them - is that of Bina Rabbitte, a domestic at the Home.
    She did not have the qualification to certify such deaths.
    Therefore those certificates are null and void.

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