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Thread: Criticism of Islam (Second Thread)

  1. #791

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    Nobody pays much attention to official catholic doctrine. Or didn't you notice?
    My point is literally that you're not paying attention to official Catholic doctrine.

    And catholic doctrine does not advocate violence against homosexuals. Unlike islam.
    That's not true. If anything, the Koran is actually less harsh in what it says about homosexuality than the Bible. This is just another example of the different standards that Islamophobes apply to Islam and Christianity.

    And catholic doctrine does not form the basis of law regarding homosexuality. Unlike islam.
    That's not true, either. The Catholic Church has opposed every attempt to liberalise laws providing for equal rights for gay people.

    So i have no reason to restrict catholic immigration.
    Because you're ignoring what Catholicism teaches and misrepresenting what Islam teaches.

    Quite obviously, a different standard needs to be applied to muslims.
    It doesn't need to be, unless you need to justify your prejudice against Muslims, which is obviously what's going on here.
    Repeal the 27th.

  2. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    This is such a perfect example of the complete lack of imagination and empathy that characterises the anti-refugee crowd.

    Here's a little exercise for you. Imagine that it's you who is fleeing with your family. Would you be indifferent as to whether your family ended up in the UK or Russia, for example, provided that each country is safe?
    The "anti-refugee crowd"? If people are genuine refugees, then they may expect our help, but as I've outlined above, once you cross from a safe place where you can claim asylum, to another country you have become something other than a refugee. You could have applied for protection in that country but you didn't - you wanted something "better" - call that what you will, but most people would call it an economic migrant.

    If I were fleeing persecution or war, I would consider myself lucky to be given refuge at all. I would not expect to be given a glossy travel brochure and asked to pick which wealthy open democracy of my choice I'd like to go to, all at their expense.

    And if I have committed a serious crime in the country granting me asylum, the 1951 Convention on Refugees (Art. 33, 2) allows my host country to expel me even if my life would be in danger in my home country.

    “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” Aldous Huxley

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    Quote Originally Posted by __e621 View Post
    The "anti-refugee crowd"? If people are genuine refugees, then they may expect our help, but as I've outlined above, once you cross from a safe place where you can claim asylum, to another country you have become something other than a refugee. You could have applied for protection in that country but you didn't - you wanted something "better" - call that what you will, but most people would call it an economic migrant.

    If I were fleeing persecution or war, I would consider myself lucky to be given refuge at all. I would not expect to be given a glossy travel brochure and asked to pick which wealthy open democracy of my choice I'd like to go to, all at their expense.

    And if I have committed a serious crime in the country granting me asylum, the 1951 Convention on Refugees (Art. 33, 2) allows my host country to expel me even if my life would be in danger in my home country.
    Good Post .

  4. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    My point is literally that you're not paying attention to official Catholic doctrine.
    And my point is that nobody else does. So it's not an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    That's not true. If anything, the Koran is actually less harsh in what it says about homosexuality than the Bible. This is just another example of the different standards that Islamophobes apply to Islam and Christianity.
    You are doubtless relying on Leviticus and ignoring the greater body of catholic teaching. You will easily find judicial executions and murders of homosexuals in the name of Islam, but not in the name of Catholicism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    That's not true, either. The Catholic Church has opposed every attempt to liberalise laws providing for equal rights for gay people.
    But it loses, and doesn't form the basis of law. Whereas Shariah has horrendous strictures in place against homosexuality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Because you're ignoring what Catholicism teaches and misrepresenting what Islam teaches.
    Dealt with above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    It doesn't need to be, unless you need to justify your prejudice against Muslims, which is obviously what's going on here.
    A prejudice against Islam is fact-based and rational; suspicion of people who lead their lives by it is also entirely justified.

    You've got nothing, Merc.

  5. #795

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    Quote Originally Posted by __e621 View Post
    The "anti-refugee crowd"? If people are genuine refugees, then they may expect our help, but as I've outlined above, once you cross from a safe place where you can claim asylum, to another country you have become something other than a refugee.
    And as I pointed out above, this is a perfect example of the lack of empathy and imagination that characterises the anti-refugee crowd.

    You could have applied for protection in that country but you didn't - you wanted something "better" - call that what you will, but most people would call it an economic migrant.
    No, they wouldn't. You're making a mistake that is typical of prejudiced people which is to assume that everyone else shares your prejudices.

    Suppose you are fleeing Ireland and you have a choice - you could flee to the UK or you could flee to Russia.


    By your limited logic, unless you are willing to flip a coin to decide which country to flee to, you are no longer a genuine refugee.

    Of course, that would be absurd, because refugees - being ordinary human beings - care about the long-term welfare of their families and are not indifferent as to where they end up. The fact that they care about their families enough not to choose any safe country at random doesn't mean they're not refugees.
    Repeal the 27th.

  6. #796

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    And my point is that nobody else does. So it's not an issue.
    The fact that other people share your prejudices is not an argument in favour of your prejudices.

    You are doubtless relying on Leviticus and ignoring the greater body of catholic teaching. You will easily find judicial executions and murders of homosexuals in the name of Islam, but not in the name of Catholicism.
    The Catholic Church has a long history of executing gay people - longer than Islam, of course. I wonder where you think those centuries of scholars found their justifications if not in Catholic doctrines.

    But it loses, and doesn't form the basis of law. Whereas Shariah has horrendous strictures in place against homosexuality.
    It doesn't always lose, in fact it has only recently started to lose at all. There are still many countries where gay people are denied equal rights due to the influence of conservative Catholics. In some of those countries, gay people are worse off than in some Muslim-majority countries. It would be much better to be a gay person in Turkey than Uganda, for instance.


    A prejudice against Islam is fact-based and rational; suspicion of people who lead their lives by it is also entirely justified.
    Prejudices are never rational, by definition. But I've done a pretty extensive job of exposing the flaws in your reasoning here - you're simply not applying the same set of rules consistently, because this is the only way to sustain your irrational hatred of Muslims.
    Repeal the 27th.

  7. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The fact that other people share your prejudices is not an argument in favour of your prejudices.



    The Catholic Church has a long history of executing gay people - longer than Islam, of course. I wonder where you think those centuries of scholars found their justifications if not in Catholic doctrines.



    It doesn't always lose, in fact it has only recently started to lose at all. There are still many countries where gay people are denied equal rights due to the influence of conservative Catholics. In some of those countries, gay people are worse off than in some Muslim-majority countries. It would be much better to be a gay person in Turkey than Uganda, for instance.




    Prejudices are never rational, by definition. But I've done a pretty extensive job of exposing the flaws in your reasoning here - you're simply not applying the same set of rules consistently, because this is the only way to sustain your irrational hatred of Muslims.
    That does not deal with the point I keep making, which is that people are not influenced by catholic dogma. So it's not an issue.

    I don't know how you get from that to a generalised slur about my prejudices. You are not dealing with my point.

    Is the rest of your post as dishonest and evasive? After that opening sentence, it scarcely warrants reading, does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The fact that other people share your prejudices is not an argument in favour of your prejudices.



    The Catholic Church has a long history of executing gay people - longer than Islam, of course. I wonder where you think those centuries of scholars found their justifications if not in Catholic doctrines.



    It doesn't always lose, in fact it has only recently started to lose at all. There are still many countries where gay people are denied equal rights due to the influence of conservative Catholics. In some of those countries, gay people are worse off than in some Muslim-majority countries. It would be much better to be a gay person in Turkey than Uganda, for instance.




    Prejudices are never rational, by definition. But I've done a pretty extensive job of exposing the flaws in your reasoning here - you're simply not applying the same set of rules consistently, because this is the only way to sustain your irrational hatred of Muslims.
    I just had a look at your second sentence. Another epic fail. If we are talking about screening muslims or catholics, the data on muslim views and current legislation (death penalty, prison etc) is relevant. Not old history. Surely you can see that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The fact that other people share your prejudices is not an argument in favour of your prejudices.



    The Catholic Church has a long history of executing gay people - longer than Islam, of course. I wonder where you think those centuries of scholars found their justifications if not in Catholic doctrines.



    It doesn't always lose, in fact it has only recently started to lose at all. There are still many countries where gay people are denied equal rights due to the influence of conservative Catholics. In some of those countries, gay people are worse off than in some Muslim-majority countries. It would be much better to be a gay person in Turkey than Uganda, for instance.




    Prejudices are never rational, by definition. But I've done a pretty extensive job of exposing the flaws in your reasoning here - you're simply not applying the same set of rules consistently, because this is the only way to sustain your irrational hatred of Muslims.
    Just had a look at your third point. Thank God for Uganda! You've flogged that tiny outlier in the past. You are utterly shameless. If you're so upset by tiny Uganda I take it you accept the considerable threat posed by death sentences and prison time all across the middle east and wider muslim world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The fact that other people share your prejudices is not an argument in favour of your prejudices.



    The Catholic Church has a long history of executing gay people - longer than Islam, of course. I wonder where you think those centuries of scholars found their justifications if not in Catholic doctrines.



    It doesn't always lose, in fact it has only recently started to lose at all. There are still many countries where gay people are denied equal rights due to the influence of conservative Catholics. In some of those countries, gay people are worse off than in some Muslim-majority countries. It would be much better to be a gay person in Turkey than Uganda, for instance.




    Prejudices are never rational, by definition. But I've done a pretty extensive job of exposing the flaws in your reasoning here - you're simply not applying the same set of rules consistently, because this is the only way to sustain your irrational hatred of Muslims.
    And finally, for a bonus point, semantics are a pedant's recourse. In actual fact, prejudices certainly can be rational. I will hang around an aviary longer than a tropical swamp, because I'll take a bee sting but not a dose of malaria thank you. Even though some mosquitos don't carry the disease. And for preference, I'll spend the day in a butterfly farm.

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