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Thread: Repeal the 8th (Second Thread)

  1. #3821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Davison View Post
    My lord you’re quite the library. Must help you when you meet Colm O’Gorman or write to newspapers.
    I don't know what you mean by any of this.

    Personally at this stage I couldn’t give one rattling damn what the abortion rate is anywhere. You do realize you’re merely demonstrating how common and normal it is. Which will be the month after the next in Ireland.
    What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

    It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

    Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.

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    Witch petaljam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooner View Post
    I don't know what you mean by any of this.
    I assume Emily is referring to your post, apparently edited since, where you mentioned that you have yourself provided figures to various high profile prochoice personalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by gooner View Post
    What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

    It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

    Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.
    It's not relevant unless the reasons why GP services don't provide abortions in other countries is relevant to Ireland.
    For instance in the UK, back in the 60s, the priority was to end the high number of illegal abortions, carried out in some cases by doctors. So the decision made was to remove GPs and other non specialists from the equation altogether and have legal abortion provision only in specific centres.

    The existence of the U.K. as an Irish "solution" since then means that there are unlikely to be large numbers of "professional" providers of illegal abortions in Ireland, so that factor is unimportant. Ensuring there is no equivalent of the US situation where abortion providers are easily identified and regularly targeted by threats or actual violence, however, probably needs to be a factor in Ireland.
    KOBO

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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    I assume Emily is referring to your post, apparently edited since, where you mentioned that you have yourself provided figures to various high profile prochoice personalities.
    OK. It's twitter and to be fair to him he engaged with many pro-lifers on there.


    It's not relevant unless the reasons why GP services don't provide abortions in other countries is relevant to Ireland.
    That's fair enough. The only thing I know is it is done like this in recent years.

    The availability of Mifepristone since 2012 for abortions at gestations less than 49 days
    (from 2014 for gestations less than 63 days) enabled induced abortion to be managed
    from a general practice setting. By 2015, general practice accounted for 2.6 per cent of
    induced abortions (Figure 4).
    https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/~/media...rt-2013-15.pdf

    Page 4 on their Termination of Pregnancy Information deals with whether they are comfortable with providing abortion. It says then to refer to another GP or health centre if that is the case. Judging by the 2.6% I would guess that is what's happening quite a bit.

    https://www.health.wa.gov.au/publica...ers_Dec_07.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by gooner View Post
    OK. It's twitter and to be fair to him he engaged with many pro-lifers on there.

    That's fair enough. The only thing I know is it is done like this in recent years.

    https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/~/media...rt-2013-15.pdf

    Page 4 on their Termination of Pregnancy Information deals with whether they are comfortable with providing abortion. It says then to refer to another GP or health centre if that is the case. Judging by the 2.6% I would guess that is what's happening quite a bit.

    https://www.health.wa.gov.au/publica...ers_Dec_07.pdf
    Sorry still no idea what your point is. Most abortion services in the rest of the developed world were set up before the abortion pill became widespread, so naturally the laws didn't take it into account. That they haven't updated their laws because they have a system that they are happy enough with is one thing, but you need to explain why Australia, or indeed anywhere else, should serve as a model for Ireland? Is this a random choice or are just cherrypicking for data that seems to back up your claim?
    KOBO

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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Sorry still no idea what your point is. Most abortion services in the rest of the developed world were set up before the abortion pill became widespread, so naturally the laws didn't take it into account. That they haven't updated their laws because they have a system that they are happy enough with is one thing, but you need to explain why Australia, or indeed anywhere else, should serve as a model for Ireland? Is this a random choice or are just cherrypicking for data that seems to back up your claim?
    Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterbox View Post
    Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
    Correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterbox View Post
    Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
    Yes. There will probably be some need for early scans if there is any possibility of an ectopic pregnancy, for which a medical abortion would not be indicated - but then that would be the case if an ectopic pregnancy was suspected anyway.

    Other than that I can't see why hospital service would need to be involved in a medical termination.

    There are some cases where surgical termination is required even pre 12 weeks though I don't know how often: whenever the medical termination is not advisable for a woman - something similar to the proportion of women for whom the combined oral contraceptive pill is contra-indicated I imagine. Those would need to be carried out surgically, and then there is also the 10-12 week group, because the failure rate increases significantly after 9 or 10 weeks, which is why the NHS generally doesn't fund medical abortions after that date any way. I think in the US they may do it for longer, but possibly not up to 12 weeks all the same.
    KOBO

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    Politics.ie Member Emily Davison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooner View Post
    I don't know what you mean by any of this.



    What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

    It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

    Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.
    I just meant you weren't a fan of Richie Sadlier in the IT.

    Richie Sadlier: Men are missing from the abortion debate

    As regards, GP's. Abortion service, we are literally talking giving out prescriptions. That's what the 'service' will be. For the vast vast majority of cases. No doubt Irish women go to their doctors currently on advice on crisis pregnancies so instead of referring the women to the uk or to Woman on Web to buy pills, the GP will prescribe an abortion pill. That will in general be the sum total of their involvement in abortions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Davison View Post
    I just meant you weren't a fan of Richie Sadlier in the IT.

    Richie Sadlier: Men are missing from the abortion debate
    Well of course when he spreads a complete falsehood in that article I previously mentioned with nothing to back up what he's saying. And this carries influence.

    The real definition of fake news.

    I’m voting Yes because I accept the reality that Ireland has an abortion rate comparable with countries where abortion is legal.
    His football punditry is boring too which doesn't help.

  10. #3830
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterbox View Post
    Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
    This debate with Gooner is hot air, much the same with the 180 proposed amendments that the gang of 9 are seeking to impose. Literally not much changes in January. Women currently getting abortion pills online will get them from their chemist instead. And difficult cases, the FFA/Health/Disability cases will now be performed in Ireland. So that Irish doctors don't have to reject woman any longer and don't have to give them the phone numbers of English clinics. The POLDP/Life one's are performed already. One assumes it is to those hospitals that all late terms will go, meaning the main maternity hospitals.

    Positives are

    - women won't have to travel
    - women won't be carrying their dead babies back in suitcases of the back of cars
    - women won't be getting their babies ashes back in a DHL package
    - women won't have to feel like their country does not support them
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