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Thread: Serbia, Yugoslavia and all that...

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    Default Serbia, Yugoslavia and all that...

    Serbia has recognised secession by Macedonia and Montenegro with no problems, only asked Serb areas of Croatia and Bosnia stay with Serbia, and only asks same of Kosovo.

    The Presevo Valley is a good bargaining chip for North Kosovo. Its worth noting Kosovar expansionist ambitions in Prsevo and Macedonia.

    Also their treatment of Roma in Kosovo

    Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_Mitrovica_Camps for details of same.
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    Germany only asks that the Sudeten people, Austria, the people of Alsace Lorraine, East Prussia, and the corridor to it, be incorporated into the Reich...

    What is it with you people that the plantation of Ulster is rightly condemned three-hundred years later, but the murder of thousands in the process of the same sort of ethnic cleansing only a few years ago is just forgotten. You whinge about Cromwell, but see no problem in rewarding the actions of Arkan, Mladic and Karadic. Fascist murdering bastards now en vogue with RSF?

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    Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

    Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
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    Yeah what is it with many republicans and their problem with Albanian sefl determination. Its really quite odd. I think it may be more of a muddled anti-imperialist stance than anything else, ie NATO attacked Serbia; NATO is a bad imperialist project, therefore Serbia is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kf
    Yeah what is it with many republicans and their problem with Albanian sefl determination. Its really quite odd. I think it may be more of a muddled anti-imperialist stance than anything else, ie NATO attacked Serbia; NATO is a bad imperialist project, therefore Serbia is good.
    Quite a few Irish Republicans participated in the Yugoslav civil war - none fought on the Serbian side as far as I know. So there seems to be a differance in Irish Republicanism between the doers and the talkers. The latter (in common with Tony Benn) seem to be unable to come to terms with the fact Milosovic was not a socialists so they were effectively hood winked as this was the prime reason for supporting him in the first place. I am as baffled as you Kf why many alledged Republicans still hold the cause he created dear. Especially as I have pointed out in another thread, their stance has more in common with hard core Unionists than main stream Republicanism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teanganua
    Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

    Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
    Unlike Serbia, which only wished to spread lollipops and rainbows across the region.
    "Unless you are an absolute pacifist, then you acknowledge that there are times when taking up arms is appropriate."
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    Quote Originally Posted by fergalr
    Quote Originally Posted by teanganua
    Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

    Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
    Unlike Serbia, which only wished to spread lollipops and rainbows across the region.
    Yes, lets not forget that Serbia is the source of all evil in the world, and no other party to the conflict misbehaved in any way.

    And even though Serbia handed milosevic over, and the government has changed several times since by democratic means, they are still the same evil serbians as 10 years ago.

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    Not in the whole world but if you're apportioning the butcher's bill between the actors in the Balkans, Belgrade's portion is a lot longer than the rest.
    "Unless you are an absolute pacifist, then you acknowledge that there are times when taking up arms is appropriate."
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    Politics.ie Member Thac0man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabhcan
    And even though Serbia handed milosevic over, and the government has changed several times since by democratic means, they are still the same evil serbians as 10 years ago.
    Serbia is no longer ruled by Milosovic, but Kostunica who replaced him is no less a nationalist that Milosovic was. Neither were Kostunicas supporters like Vuk Dreskovic, who in fact was even more radical. Milosovic was removed by the Serbian people because of corruption, not any war he fought or idiology he advanced.

    Another factor in Milosovics removal was that the nationalist element, personified by people like Vuk Draskovic, accused Milosovic of not doing enough to support Serbians in wars in Bosnia and elsewhere. This is true, as Milosovic was only interested in using the nationalist agenda to cement his domestic power. As long as there was war, he had an excuse to maintain his iron grip on Serbia. How else was the war allowed to go on so long when Serbia had such superiority?

    Ironically I believe that the turning point for Milosivic was not Operation Storm or the election that ousted him. But the deal he made and broke with the then Croatian President Tudjman. Agreeing to divide Bosnia between them Bosnia Croats launched into a war against the Bosnian government. They jumped first, but Serbia did not move. Milosovic sat by and watched as the ARBiH thrashed the life out of the Bosnian Croats. Tudjman, who had regular force in Hertzgovina, did not move them to the front and while Serbia held back on the deal. The effect was to prolong the war for Bsonian Serbs, when the chance of total victory was spurned. This in my opinion sowed the seeds of Milosovces pownfall at the hands of nationalists that up till then he counted on for support.

    He was exported to the Hague, because short of killing him and making him a matyr, what were his rival Serbian nationalists going to do with him? Karadic and Mladic are still at large and it is a mark of the remaining strong nationalist ethos that still drives Serbia that they are unlikely to see the Hague any time soon. Milosovic being sent to the Hague was a poltical move to defuse inter-nationalist tensions in Serbia. If it was anything more noble Karadic and Mladic would be there now.

    But your point about Serbia being a democracy is valid, but not for the reason you think. As I have said in another thread, 52% of Serbs voted for change. But I believe like the other 48% they voted for their choice out of fear, just fear of differant things. The term 'collective punishment' is bandied about with regard to the Wests treatment of Serbia. But that loaded term implies a people being punished for things done in their name and against their will or a sizable minority who are not responsible. None of those suggestions are valid. Serbias' democratic process continues to be held hostage to fear of Serbias own making. Serbia has and continues to act out of fear born out of the willful distortion of its own history, rather than hope. Which is sad. But there may be hope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thac0man
    But your point about Serbia being a democracy is valid, but not for the reason you think. As I have said in another thread, 52% of Serbs voted for change. But I believe like the other 48% they voted for their choice out of fear, just fear of differant things. The term 'collective punishment' is bandied about with regard to the Wests treatment of Serbia. But that loaded term implies a people being punished for things done in their name and against their will or a sizable minority who are not responsible. None of those suggestions are valid.
    So you are trying to prove that an entire people is indeed guilty. Quite a feat!

    Serbias' democratic process continues to be held hostage to fear of Serbias own making. Serbia has and continues to act out of fear born out of the willful distortion of its own history, rather than hope. Which is sad. But there may be hope.
    No. Whatever can be said about Milosevic's policies, Servian fears are not distorted, they are very real. They are shown to be real by the treatment that Serbs got at the hands of other victorious powers, from Croatia in the early 90s to Kosovo recently.

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