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Thread: The Libyan Truth: Paradise Lost?

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    Politics.ie Member LobsterG's Avatar
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    Default The Libyan Truth: Paradise Lost?

    Imagine there was a country where owning a home was considered a human right by law. A country where education and medical treatment were all free. Where it was free to start a farming business. Where every mother was given the equivalent of $5000 after she had given birth and every newly married couple was given $50000 to buy a home. Where petrol cost just $0.14 a litre and you could buy 40 loaves of bread for $0.15. Where electricity was free and the state owned banks charged no interest on loans. Where one in four of the population had earned a free university degree, and those who needed medical treatment or education that was unavailable in this glorious socialist paradise, were funded to go abroad and receive this education or medical care. This is how some have described Colonel Gaddafi’s Libya before he was murdered by rebels in 2011. Others, especially the guttural western media and those influenced by it, will tell you he was just your typical tyrannical dictator, who seized power and got fat off his countries major resource, slaughtered anyone who spoke out against him and imprisoned and raped a significant portion of his Libya’s young female population while his people were poor and miserable. So what really happened in Libya before and in 2011? And Why?

    Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi was born into poverty in 1942, the son of a Bedouin goat-herder. Gaddafi became involved in politics at school and subsequently went on to enroll at the Royal Military Academy in Benghazi. In 1969 he founded a revolutionary cell within the military and seized power from the widely unpopular monarchy of King Idris in a bloodless coup. Over the next few decades Gaddafi oversaw an undeniable change for the better in the lives of the Libyan people, and unbelievably by 1979 the average per-capita income was at $8,170, up from $40 in 1951; this was above the average of many industrialized countries like Italy and the U.K. Adult literacy programs were launched and free university education was made available, and during Gaddafi’s rule, literacy among the Libyan people rose by almost 80%. The 80’s saw work start on the Great Man-Made River, funded by the Gaddafi government at the cost of 25 billion dollars, the world’s largest irrigation project that seen fresh clean water pumped all around Libya, a Saharan country. These are just some of the examples of how things changed in Libya during Gaddafi’s reign. Petrol and bread were that cheap, electricity was not free but it was very affordable, farming supplies and farming land were free, medical care and education were free. However there is little evidence of millions of dollars going to newlyweds or parents but there were child benefit payments and such, a rare occurrence in dictator states. And under Islamic law no banks can attach interest to transactions but they do charge administration fees instead, but still, these were very low as Libya was one of the only countries left in the world who had yet to have a Rothschild central bank (more on that later).

    Make no mistake about it though, Colonel Gaddafi was a dictator. Any attempts to seize power away from him were brutally crushed. Cronyism was rife during his reign and he was never democratically elected. He supported organizations like the I.R.A and the A.N.C, as he was strongly against colonial powers ruling small or under-developed nations. Other incidents such as the Lockerbie bombing certainly gave his detractors plenty of ammunition against him. However it’s undeniable Gaddafi was trying to build a socialist state. A Libyan studies scholar named Ronald St. Bruce once wrote that ‘’if socialism is defined as a redistribution of wealth and resources, a socialist revolution clearly occurred in Libya after 1969 and most especially in the second half of the 1970s. The management of the economy was increasingly socialist in intent and effect in wealth in housing, capital and land significantly redistributed or in the process of redistribution. Private enterprise was virtually eliminated, largely replaced by a centrally controlled economy‘’. After his death, the Daily Times of Nigeria summed up the feelings of Gaddafi supporters when it wrote that ‘’while Gaddafi was undeniably a dictator, he was the most benevolent in a region that knows only dictators. He was a great man that looked out for his people and made them the envy of all of Africa’’. The staunchly anti-Gaddafi New York Times were invited to Libya in 2009 and after completing their visit had to admit that ‘’everyone is involved in every decision. Tens of thousands of people take part in local committee meetings to discuss issues and vote on everything from foreign treaties to building schools’’. Libya at this time also had the highest GDP and life expectancy in Africa and had less people living below the poverty line than countries like the Netherlands.

    So at this point you must be wondering why so many of his people wanted him dead?

    The West wanted him dead. Nothing ground breaking about that statement. The ‘’Mad Dog of the East’’, the moniker bestowed on him by the western media, had been on NATO’s endangered species list for a long time. NATO’s (the same NATO that ignores genocides in places like Rwanda and Palestine) involvement was described (by themselves) as ‘’authorized military action to protect civilians’’ but in reality all they really did was bomb Gaddafi’s locations after he refused to flee Libya, eventually cornering him in Sirte. NATO bombed his location, badly wounding him, the rebels then killed off his last defenders and captured him, beat him severely while filming it on a mobile phone and stripped him of his clothes and dignity and forced him to plead for his life in front of the bloodthirsty mob. The beating was so severe he died on the way to hospital. A death fit for a mad dog were the sentiments of the equally bloodthirsty western rag newspapers, who had originally tried to deny there was any beating and that Gaddafi had been shot. David Cameron said that he was proud of his countries role in this lynching, while Obama declared that America had once again saved a nation from a tyrannical ruler (pity it was over 40 years after he had come into power, Barrack).

    Condolences and tributes from leaders like Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin and Nelson Mandela were ignored.

    The real reason Gaddafi was killed, is money. The control of Libya’s massive oil reserves is the obvious reason, but there are others. Gaddafi had plans to introduce a new currency to the African and Middle Eastern regions, the gold dinar, to rival the euro and the dollar. This would mean poor African and Islamic countries would trade and sell their resources only in the gold dinar, finally breaking their unhappy dependence on the euro and dollar. America in particular would lose out massively if this new arrangement came to pass. Also, in the year 2000, there were only a few countries in the world left that did not have a Rothschild central bank. These were Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, North Korea and Syria (Syria is debatable but it does not have any IMF debt).

    Of course, we know soon after 2000 what America and her cronies did to Iraq and Afghanistan, the textbook capitalist takeover, pretend the target country is evil to the core and a threat to American shores, level the country and install a puppet government that will allow their natural resources to be plundered for free. And worse, install a Rothschild central bank before you have even hoisted up the good old stars and stripes so the bank can then loan the new puppet government the billions of dollars it needs to repair all the damage the illegal war has done, making your country a slave to those good old Rothschild folk like everybody else. I use Rothschild as a broad term, I do not want to explore the entire banking cartel in this piece, who control governments and make decisions like the one that seen Libya left in turmoil. After the fall of Libya and the South Sudan oil grab, only Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba remain Rothschild free now. They will be next and in Syria’s case, this will come sooner rather than later.

    If anyone thinks I am incorrect here, ask yourself then why a group of ‘’Libyan Rebels’’, months before Gaddafi was even dead and while most of Libya was still under his control, would take time out of their busy rebelling schedule to establish a Rothschild central bank and new national oil company in Libya’s second city, the rebel stronghold of Benghazi? Does this seem like something freedom fighters in a war against a maniacal dictator stop to do? No. The truth is, the Libyan civil war, like pretty much every other war of this kind in recent times was engineered by the C.I.A, the world’s most dangerous terrorist organization. NATO backed rebels (basically Al-Qaeda foot soldiers, long time enemies of Gaddafi who had no foothold in Libya until the New World Order decided it was time for Gaddafi to go) were the smokescreen but it was a money move like all the others at the end of the day. Where do rebels, the poor and working class turned soldiers, get brand new mortar cannons and machine guns from, while the Libyan Army are still using the ol’ reliable AK-47’s? Obama and Cameron and the rest of the so called protectors of the free world have never had a problem using there alleged mortal enemy Al-Qaeda to do their dirty work for them.

    So yet another illegal war brought on by the insatiable greed of the banking cartels who will stop at nothing until everything and everyone is under their control. I want the world to wake up, and finally stand together. Gaddafi was a man with major flaws but he did create one of the last socialist strong holds, which has now been consigned with the rest to the dust bin of history by the New World Order. Gaddafi is now ridiculed and mocked in the west; tyrant, maniac and serial rapist (the rape allegations were classed as very dubious by Amnesty International, the west’s attempt to justify another illegal war). I titled this story Paradise Lost, in tribute to the migrants, Libyan or otherwise, who died in the Mediterranean humanitarian crisis of April 2015, when around 900 migrants died off the coast of Libya. People can say what they will about Gaddafi’s Libya, but no one ever had to flee it because it had become a jihadist infested warzone like it is right now, hurtling towards financial ruin, state collapse and a third civil war in four years. God bless America.

    I will sign off with this quote from Nelson Mandela:

    “I have also invited Brother Leader Gaddafi to this country. And I do that because our moral authority dictates that we should not abandon those who helped us in the darkest hour in the history of this country. Not only did the Libyans support us in return, they gave us the resources for us to conduct our struggle, and to win. And those South Africans who have berated me for being loyal to our friends, can literally go and jump into a pool.”
    You have to be a real, lowlife piece of sh*t to get involved in politics - Frank Reynolds

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    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterG View Post
    Imagine there was a country where owning a home was considered a human right by law. A country where education and medical treatment were all free. Where it was free to start a farming business. Where every mother was given the equivalent of $5000 after she had given birth and every newly married couple was given $50000 to buy a home. Where petrol cost just $0.14 a litre and you could buy 40 loaves of bread for $0.15. Where electricity was free and the state owned banks charged no interest on loans. Where one in four of the population had earned a free university degree, and those who needed medical treatment or education that was unavailable in this glorious socialist paradise, were funded to go abroad and receive this education or medical care.
    More Power to Samantha.

    Currently Libya is a disaster zone. But Qatar and the KSA were not happy with the previous arrangement.
    Last edited by Analyzer; 18th July 2015 at 12:09 PM.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterG View Post
    Gaddafi was a man with major flaws
    Good of you to concede that a mass-murdering maniac had major flaws.

    As for the rest of your rant, get a ******************************ing grip, dude. Seriously.

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    Politics.ie Member LobsterG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ireallyshouldknowbetter View Post
    Good of you to concede that a mass-murdering maniac had major flaws.

    As for the rest of your rant, get a ******************************ing grip, dude. Seriously.
    Disprove it if you can, otherwise your insult means nothing
    You have to be a real, lowlife piece of sh*t to get involved in politics - Frank Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterG View Post
    Disprove it if you can, otherwise your insult means nothing
    Disprove what? Your rambling apologia for Gaddaffi's basket case failure of a state or your 'it woz world bankers wot dun it' conspiracy theory?

    Your entire OP is beneath contempt. It deserves no serious response.

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    Politics.ie Member LobsterG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ireallyshouldknowbetter View Post
    Disprove what? Your rambling apologia for Gaddaffi's basket case failure of a state or your 'it woz world bankers wot dun it' conspiracy theory?

    Your entire OP is beneath contempt. It deserves no serious response.
    Typical ignorant response. Libya under Gaddafi had the highest GDP and life expectancy in Africa and had less people living below the poverty line than countries like the Netherlands, medical care and education were free, literacy rose over 80%, per-capita income had risen over 1000%. Had no IMF loans or Central Bank influence and had billions and billions in the treasury.... Some failure!

    So again, disproving it, and saying you can disprove it, are two different things.
    You have to be a real, lowlife piece of sh*t to get involved in politics - Frank Reynolds

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    Politics.ie Member statsman's Avatar
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    When you see the word 'truth' in a thread title, then you know it isn't.
    Let us consider the Serapeum of Alexandria.

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    Politics.ie Member LobsterG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statsman View Post
    When you see the word 'truth' in a thread title, then you know it isn't.
    So the other guy said, yet I'm still waiting for the lies to be pointed out.
    You have to be a real, lowlife piece of sh*t to get involved in politics - Frank Reynolds

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    Politics.ie Member owedtojoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterG View Post
    Imagine there was a country where owning a home was considered a human right by law. A country where education and medical treatment were all free. Where it was free to start a farming business. Where every mother was given the equivalent of $5000 after she had given birth and every newly married couple was given $50000 to buy a home. Where petrol cost just $0.14 a litre and you could buy 40 loaves of bread for $0.15. Where electricity was free and the state owned banks charged no interest on loans. Where one in four of the population had earned a free university degree, and those who needed medical treatment or education that was unavailable in this glorious socialist paradise, were funded to go abroad and receive this education or medical care. This is how some have described Colonel Gaddafi’s Libya before he was murdered by rebels in 2011. Others, especially the guttural western media and those influenced by it, will tell you he was just your typical tyrannical dictator, who seized power and got fat off his countries major resource, slaughtered anyone who spoke out against him and imprisoned and raped a significant portion of his Libya’s young female population while his people were poor and miserable. So what really happened in Libya before and in 2011? And Why?

    Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi was born into poverty in 1942, the son of a Bedouin goat-herder. Gaddafi became involved in politics at school and subsequently went on to enroll at the Royal Military Academy in Benghazi. In 1969 he founded a revolutionary cell within the military and seized power from the widely unpopular monarchy of King Idris in a bloodless coup. Over the next few decades Gaddafi oversaw an undeniable change for the better in the lives of the Libyan people, and unbelievably by 1979 the average per-capita income was at $8,170, up from $40 in 1951; this was above the average of many industrialized countries like Italy and the U.K. Adult literacy programs were launched and free university education was made available, and during Gaddafi’s rule, literacy among the Libyan people rose by almost 80%. The 80’s saw work start on the Great Man-Made River, funded by the Gaddafi government at the cost of 25 billion dollars, the world’s largest irrigation project that seen fresh clean water pumped all around Libya, a Saharan country. These are just some of the examples of how things changed in Libya during Gaddafi’s reign. Petrol and bread were that cheap, electricity was not free but it was very affordable, farming supplies and farming land were free, medical care and education were free. However there is little evidence of millions of dollars going to newlyweds or parents but there were child benefit payments and such, a rare occurrence in dictator states. And under Islamic law no banks can attach interest to transactions but they do charge administration fees instead, but still, these were very low as Libya was one of the only countries left in the world who had yet to have a Rothschild central bank (more on that later).

    Make no mistake about it though, Colonel Gaddafi was a dictator. Any attempts to seize power away from him were brutally crushed. Cronyism was rife during his reign and he was never democratically elected. He supported organizations like the I.R.A and the A.N.C, as he was strongly against colonial powers ruling small or under-developed nations. Other incidents such as the Lockerbie bombing certainly gave his detractors plenty of ammunition against him. However it’s undeniable Gaddafi was trying to build a socialist state. A Libyan studies scholar named Ronald St. Bruce once wrote that ‘’if socialism is defined as a redistribution of wealth and resources, a socialist revolution clearly occurred in Libya after 1969 and most especially in the second half of the 1970s. The management of the economy was increasingly socialist in intent and effect in wealth in housing, capital and land significantly redistributed or in the process of redistribution. Private enterprise was virtually eliminated, largely replaced by a centrally controlled economy‘’. After his death, the Daily Times of Nigeria summed up the feelings of Gaddafi supporters when it wrote that ‘’while Gaddafi was undeniably a dictator, he was the most benevolent in a region that knows only dictators. He was a great man that looked out for his people and made them the envy of all of Africa’’. The staunchly anti-Gaddafi New York Times were invited to Libya in 2009 and after completing their visit had to admit that ‘’everyone is involved in every decision. Tens of thousands of people take part in local committee meetings to discuss issues and vote on everything from foreign treaties to building schools’’. Libya at this time also had the highest GDP and life expectancy in Africa and had less people living below the poverty line than countries like the Netherlands.

    So at this point you must be wondering why so many of his people wanted him dead?

    The West wanted him dead. Nothing ground breaking about that statement. The ‘’Mad Dog of the East’’, the moniker bestowed on him by the western media, had been on NATO’s endangered species list for a long time. NATO’s (the same NATO that ignores genocides in places like Rwanda and Palestine) involvement was described (by themselves) as ‘’authorized military action to protect civilians’’ but in reality all they really did was bomb Gaddafi’s locations after he refused to flee Libya, eventually cornering him in Sirte. NATO bombed his location, badly wounding him, the rebels then killed off his last defenders and captured him, beat him severely while filming it on a mobile phone and stripped him of his clothes and dignity and forced him to plead for his life in front of the bloodthirsty mob. The beating was so severe he died on the way to hospital. A death fit for a mad dog were the sentiments of the equally bloodthirsty western rag newspapers, who had originally tried to deny there was any beating and that Gaddafi had been shot. David Cameron said that he was proud of his countries role in this lynching, while Obama declared that America had once again saved a nation from a tyrannical ruler (pity it was over 40 years after he had come into power, Barrack).

    Condolences and tributes from leaders like Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin and Nelson Mandela were ignored.

    The real reason Gaddafi was killed, is money. The control of Libya’s massive oil reserves is the obvious reason, but there are others. Gaddafi had plans to introduce a new currency to the African and Middle Eastern regions, the gold dinar, to rival the euro and the dollar. This would mean poor African and Islamic countries would trade and sell their resources only in the gold dinar, finally breaking their unhappy dependence on the euro and dollar. America in particular would lose out massively if this new arrangement came to pass. Also, in the year 2000, there were only a few countries in the world left that did not have a Rothschild central bank. These were Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, North Korea and Syria (Syria is debatable but it does not have any IMF debt).

    Of course, we know soon after 2000 what America and her cronies did to Iraq and Afghanistan, the textbook capitalist takeover, pretend the target country is evil to the core and a threat to American shores, level the country and install a puppet government that will allow their natural resources to be plundered for free. And worse, install a Rothschild central bank before you have even hoisted up the good old stars and stripes so the bank can then loan the new puppet government the billions of dollars it needs to repair all the damage the illegal war has done, making your country a slave to those good old Rothschild folk like everybody else. I use Rothschild as a broad term, I do not want to explore the entire banking cartel in this piece, who control governments and make decisions like the one that seen Libya left in turmoil. After the fall of Libya and the South Sudan oil grab, only Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba remain Rothschild free now. They will be next and in Syria’s case, this will come sooner rather than later.

    If anyone thinks I am incorrect here, ask yourself then why a group of ‘’Libyan Rebels’’, months before Gaddafi was even dead and while most of Libya was still under his control, would take time out of their busy rebelling schedule to establish a Rothschild central bank and new national oil company in Libya’s second city, the rebel stronghold of Benghazi? Does this seem like something freedom fighters in a war against a maniacal dictator stop to do? No. The truth is, the Libyan civil war, like pretty much every other war of this kind in recent times was engineered by the C.I.A, the world’s most dangerous terrorist organization. NATO backed rebels (basically Al-Qaeda foot soldiers, long time enemies of Gaddafi who had no foothold in Libya until the New World Order decided it was time for Gaddafi to go) were the smokescreen but it was a money move like all the others at the end of the day. Where do rebels, the poor and working class turned soldiers, get brand new mortar cannons and machine guns from, while the Libyan Army are still using the ol’ reliable AK-47’s? Obama and Cameron and the rest of the so called protectors of the free world have never had a problem using there alleged mortal enemy Al-Qaeda to do their dirty work for them.

    So yet another illegal war brought on by the insatiable greed of the banking cartels who will stop at nothing until everything and everyone is under their control. I want the world to wake up, and finally stand together. Gaddafi was a man with major flaws but he did create one of the last socialist strong holds, which has now been consigned with the rest to the dust bin of history by the New World Order. Gaddafi is now ridiculed and mocked in the west; tyrant, maniac and serial rapist (the rape allegations were classed as very dubious by Amnesty International, the west’s attempt to justify another illegal war). I titled this story Paradise Lost, in tribute to the migrants, Libyan or otherwise, who died in the Mediterranean humanitarian crisis of April 2015, when around 900 migrants died off the coast of Libya. People can say what they will about Gaddafi’s Libya, but no one ever had to flee it because it had become a jihadist infested warzone like it is right now, hurtling towards financial ruin, state collapse and a third civil war in four years. God bless America.

    I will sign off with this quote from Nelson Mandela:

    “I have also invited Brother Leader Gaddafi to this country. And I do that because our moral authority dictates that we should not abandon those who helped us in the darkest hour in the history of this country. Not only did the Libyans support us in return, they gave us the resources for us to conduct our struggle, and to win. And those South Africans who have berated me for being loyal to our friends, can literally go and jump into a pool.”
    Why a rapist cokehead is still the hero of a certain group of cranks is a mystery to me.

    If Libya was a "Paradise", then why did I meet a wonderful family of refugees from that country back in 1995, a family who despised and hated Gaddafi?

    Why was Abu Salim prison a centre for torture and human rights abuses, and why were over 1,000 prisioners murdered there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Salim_prison Why did the US and UK send suspects to Libya for torture when Gaddafi wwas friendly with them?

    How did Lockerbie happen? And who was answerable for the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan Embassy in London ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

    How did Gaddafi acquire a reputation for appalling sexual and drug abuse - http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign...ung-women.html ?
    Last edited by owedtojoy; 18th July 2015 at 02:57 PM.
    "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence" - David Hume

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterG View Post
    Typical ignorant response. Libya under Gaddafi had the highest GDP and life expectancy in Africa and had less people living below the poverty line than countries like the Netherlands, medical care and education were free, literacy rose over 80%, per-capita income had risen over 1000%. Had no IMF loans or Central Bank influence and had billions and billions in the treasury.... Some failure!

    So again, disproving it, and saying you can disprove it, are two different things.
    Just repeating talking points you've read on Global Research or some other lunatic site doesn't make them true. I don't have all day, so I am just going to tackle a couple of the lies you have repeated above.

    Libya didn't have the highest GDP per capita in Africa under Gaddafi. In 2010, it had the 5th highest GDP per capita in Africa. [source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita] It is still in the top 5 in Africa in 2014. The reason for this is nothing to do with Gaddafi, it is to do with Libya having the largest oil reserves on the continent.

    Libya did not have the highest life expectancy in Africa in 2010, that was Tunisia [source: Africa Life Expectancy Averages - Madote].

    Do you have any link for the claim that less Libyans were under the poverty line than in the Netherlands, because there doesn't seem to be any internationally recognised statistics for this, though there are estimates that one-third of Libyans lived below the poverty line in 2010, which would be significantly ahead of the Netherlands, at just under 10%.

    Medical care and education are free in lots of countries, that tells us nothing about the quality of the service offered.

    The point about billions in the treasury again has more to do with massive oil reserves than with Gadaffi. The increase in per capita income must be since the 1920s or something, though like your other claims, it is unsourced.

    In summary, you are a liar, and worse than that, a liar in the service of a (dead) dictator. That is why I say your OP is beneath contempt. In fairness to you, you probably don't realise you're lying, since you're just copying and pasting the lies forwarded by other apologists for Gaddafi.

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