Follow @PoliticsIE
 
 
 
Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 83

Thread: The hydrogen economy

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Clare
    Posts
    237
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default The hydrogen economy

    It's time to start looking beyond the 'age of oil' now and towards the next big energy source which the likes of Honda and BMW see as hydrogen. Colourless odourless tasteless, make it in your kitchen with some water and solar panels or a windmill. Run your home heating and car on it.



    Oil? Pfa! How could the hit be fitting the shan with such sexy things as that imaged above just around the corner? Though this website reckons 25 years before mass production, given that the American dollar is under such pressure, could the yanks make a wartime-like effort and reverse their plight in a shorter space of time? Say, 10-15 years?

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Hydrogen is a storage medium. It will have to be created before it is used (despite it being the most abundant element in the universe, you can't just pluck it out of the air) and that will use the same amount of energy that the hydrogen will release.
    Don't get me wrong, it's a very clean and efficient storage medium (using fuel cells as a buffer for wind turbines would be a big step forward) but it's not a substitute for oil.

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Fingal
    Posts
    143
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehhh
    Hydrogen is a storage medium. It will have to be creeated before it is used (despite it being the most abundant element in the universe, ou can't just pluck it out of the air) and that will use the same amount of energy that the hydrogen will release.
    Don't get me wrong, it's a very clean and efficient storage medium (using fuel cells as a buffer for wind turbines would be a big step forward) but it's not a substitute for oil.
    True, though every dollar increase in the price of oil makes nuclear generated electricity more attractive and hydrogen (produced by electricity) is potentially an effective substitute for oil in the transportation industry.

    I just wonder at what price of oil, will the penny finally drop, with policy makers in this country: $120 ... $150 .. $200 ??

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    True. I wonder if anybody has done the maths to calculate whether or not it will be possible to generate enough electricity to meet current demand and the demand of producing enough hydrogen to keep the world's transport moving. Could nuclear do that alone or would we have to fall back on coal fired stations?

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    15,634
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    As already mentioned, hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

    It is very important to remember this!

    Quote Originally Posted by michael1965
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehhh
    Hydrogen is a storage medium. It will have to be creeated before it is used (despite it being the most abundant element in the universe, ou can't just pluck it out of the air) and that will use the same amount of energy that the hydrogen will release.
    Don't get me wrong, it's a very clean and efficient storage medium (using fuel cells as a buffer for wind turbines would be a big step forward) but it's not a substitute for oil.
    True, though every dollar increase in the price of oil makes nuclear generated electricity more attractive and hydrogen (produced by electricity) is potentially an effective substitute for oil in the transportation industry.

    I just wonder at what price of oil, will the penny finally drop, with policy makers in this country: $120 ... $150 .. $200 ??
    Nuclear generated electricity will never be feasible in IReland because we have so many other alternatives that are much much cheaper.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Clare
    Posts
    237
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    As already mentioned, hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

    It is very important to remember this!
    I think Ehh said it was a storage medium and not that it wasn't a source. Source, not a source... semantics. It can be used as a source of energy, you'd agree with that? How it's produced is irrelevant as long as it's sustainable. Where it's produced on the other hand ...

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Fingal
    Posts
    143
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    As already mentioned, hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

    It is very important to remember this!

    Quote Originally Posted by michael1965
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehhh
    Hydrogen is a storage medium. It will have to be creeated before it is used (despite it being the most abundant element in the universe, ou can't just pluck it out of the air) and that will use the same amount of energy that the hydrogen will release.
    Don't get me wrong, it's a very clean and efficient storage medium (using fuel cells as a buffer for wind turbines would be a big step forward) but it's not a substitute for oil.
    True, though every dollar increase in the price of oil makes nuclear generated electricity more attractive and hydrogen (produced by electricity) is potentially an effective substitute for oil in the transportation industry.

    I just wonder at what price of oil, will the penny finally drop, with policy makers in this country: $120 ... $150 .. $200 ??
    Nuclear generated electricity will never be feasible in IReland because we have so many other alternatives that are much much cheaper.
    How many alternatives? There is certainly much potential with wind, but wind has to be backed up, with alternative guaranteed supplies.

    I'm a bit sceptical about storage of wind energy for the general supply of power, as opposed to for specific fields of use like transportation. In a recent thread that mentioned pumped storage (eg. Turlough Hill) I did a quick back of the envelope calculation and worked out that Turlough hill can't possibly supply power for more than a few hours, at its full power output.

    As for other possibilities. There seems to be a lot in theory, but not a whole lot in actual existence. On one hand, it is probably wise to encourage and monitor the development of alternatives like wave and tidal, but when you look at the contribution of hydro to the total electricity usage here, it may well be the case, that these sources can never provide sufficient power, and someone needs to look at them from a theoretical and maybe slightly sceptical/realistic point of view, to see if they can ever provide an alternative to nuclear/fossil fuels.

  8. #8
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    2,159
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Nuclear could supply world demand esaily if the technology progresses.

    Hydrogen economy is going to require alot of logistics. It is funny but fusion could be possible in 25 years
    Electrical capacity=electrical generation
    In the understanding of SirCharles Post #573 "Bloomberg...renewables"

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by riven
    It is funny but fusion could be possible in 25 years
    Fusion is forty years away, just like it was forty years ago, funnily enough.
    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when creating them

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    114
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehhh
    Hydrogen is a storage medium. It will have to be created before it is used (despite it being the most abundant element in the universe, you can't just pluck it out of the air) and that will use the same amount of energy that the hydrogen will release.
    Don't get me wrong, it's a very clean and efficient storage medium (using fuel cells as a buffer for wind turbines would be a big step forward) but it's not a substitute for oil.
    Actually, "creating" the hydrogen (through electrolysis, etc) is very energy intensive and does not get nearly an equavalence of hydrogen as a product. Factor in compression, storage, distribution etc and apparently you come out with an energy efficiency of about 22%:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.efcf.com/reports/E04.pdf
    The "power-plant-to-wheel" efficiency of a fuel cell vehicle operated on compressed gaseous hydrogen will be in the vicinity of 22%.
    So 78% of the energy is lost, and this is why hydrogen won't be saving us anytime soon
    "Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."
    John Galbraith
    Economic Left/Right:-8.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-6.97

Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •