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Thread: Doctors vs. Bankers

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    Politics.ie Member Malbekh's Avatar
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    Default Doctors vs. Bankers

    Good morning.

    In today's Irish Independent, an article by Eilish O'Regan highlights that hospitals are finding it increasingly difficult to fill posts for 'yellow pack' consultancy jobs. Although the evidence is not completely convincing in that only 21 of the 104 offers had to be re-advertised, it is backed up with anecdotal evidence and on a personal level, it's what I am hearing on the ground too.

    You can read more about it here €116,000 hospital jobs go unfilled - Independent.ie or indeed, buy the paper and support Irish jobs (regardless of your opinion on the newspaper).

    The central issue is that the jobs in question have seen their salaries slashed - consultants for public only patients from €166,000 to €116,000 and public/private from €156,000 to €109,000. As you may be aware, once your salary is in excess of €33,000 you are effectively paying a tax rate of 52% after all the USC charges etc. are taken into account.

    It comes as no surprise then, that doctors, particularly home-grown ones (expensively educated by the Irish taxpayer) are gladly fleeing this country heading for destinations where their skills are remunerated fairly, and/or where the politics of hospital life come second to patients' welfare.

    This brings into question the quality of personnel that the HSE are hiring. After all, to get the best person for a job as critical as a consultant is, you want to ensure that you get a strong set of applicants, and proceed through a rigorous process to find the best candidate. I doubt very much that the HSE would be able to commentate on their recruitment process on an individual basis, but if only one or two applied for the job in question, are we merely 'making do' with whatever person walks off the street who has the academic qualifications, but not the ability?

    Remember, apart from providing life-saving operations, consultants are also critical in the prevention of serious illnesses by spotting and eliminating early signs of diseases, that provide economic trauma to the HSE and personal trauma for the patient.

    My basic point is this though. Regardless of what side of the fence politically you are on, people must realise that failing to provide consultants with salaries that attract the best rather than the dross, will have a detrimental and far more costly effect on our health system, and yes, before people jump up and down, this includes nurses too.

    Why then, whenever we question the salaries paid to financial advisers, political advisers, staff in NAMA, staff in the Irish banking system, we are always told that without these kinds of salaries, we would never attract the quality of personnel required to run these institutions effectively?

    Are financial consultants more important than medical consultants?
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    Politics.ie Member ger12's Avatar
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    So even though over the years we paid the best bankers the highest salaries in this country, the mess we're in now is because ...

    And the best doctors are those who demand the highest salaries? Really?
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    The salary and conditions are part of the problem.if you give people at public expense highly sought after skills and exportable skills without protecting your investment you end up in the current situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malbekh View Post
    Good morning.

    In today's Irish Independent, an article by Eilish O'Regan highlights that hospitals are finding it increasingly difficult to fill posts for 'yellow pack' consultancy jobs. Although the evidence is not completely convincing in that only 21 of the 104 offers had to be re-advertised, it is backed up with anecdotal evidence and on a personal level, it's what I am hearing on the ground too.

    You can read more about it here €116,000 hospital jobs go unfilled - Independent.ie or indeed, buy the paper and support Irish jobs (regardless of your opinion on the newspaper).

    The central issue is that the jobs in question have seen their salaries slashed - consultants for public only patients from €166,000 to €116,000 and public/private from €156,000 to €109,000. As you may be aware, once your salary is in excess of €33,000 you are effectively paying a tax rate of 52% after all the USC charges etc. are taken into account.

    It comes as no surprise then, that doctors, particularly home-grown ones (expensively educated by the Irish taxpayer) are gladly fleeing this country heading for destinations where their skills are remunerated fairly, and/or where the politics of hospital life come second to patients' welfare.

    This brings into question the quality of personnel that the HSE are hiring. After all, to get the best person for a job as critical as a consultant is, you want to ensure that you get a strong set of applicants, and proceed through a rigorous process to find the best candidate. I doubt very much that the HSE would be able to commentate on their recruitment process on an individual basis, but if only one or two applied for the job in question, are we merely 'making do' with whatever person walks off the street who has the academic qualifications, but not the ability?

    Remember, apart from providing life-saving operations, consultants are also critical in the prevention of serious illnesses by spotting and eliminating early signs of diseases, that provide economic trauma to the HSE and personal trauma for the patient.

    My basic point is this though. Regardless of what side of the fence politically you are on, people must realise that failing to provide consultants with salaries that attract the best rather than the dross, will have a detrimental and far more costly effect on our health system, and yes, before people jump up and down, this includes nurses too.

    Why then, whenever we question the salaries paid to financial advisers, political advisers, staff in NAMA, staff in the Irish banking system, we are always told that with these kinds of salaries, we would never attract the quality of personnel required to run these institutions effectively?

    Are financial consultants more important than medical consultants?
    Except in the public service, generally speaking the market dictates salary levels, in the PS it has tended to be the unions doing the dictating, now it is affordability, neither of which have the efficiency of the market for sorting these issues at a sustainable & optimal level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    So even though over the years we paid the best bankers the highest salaries in this country, the mess we're in now is because ...
    They paid themselves because they said they were the best. If they said it, it must be true.

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    Politics.ie Member Disillusioned democrat's Avatar
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    ....and best paid politicians and best paid political advisors, etc., the list goes on and on.

    Our nation doesn't put a value on hard work and qualifications, only on chancers, because people want to believe that someday they'll get the big bucks by being a chancer but have no interest in putting in the time and effort to qualify as something useful.
    The more things change....

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    Politics.ie Member Malbekh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post

    And the best doctors are those who demand the highest salaries? Really?
    We're not talking about the highest salaries here, we're talking about the lowest salaries paid for consultant jobs that either aren't been filled or are being filled by people merely because they were the only one to apply for the job. The point specifically is the explanation why the government are paying enormous salaries to its financial consultants - down to 'market rates' contrasts with the salaries paid to medical consultants down to 'what we can afford'. Either it's one or the other.
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    Politics.ie Member ger12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malbekh View Post
    We're not talking about the highest salaries here, we're talking about the lowest salaries paid for consultant jobs that either aren't been filled or are being filled by people merely because they were the only one to apply for the job. The point specifically is the explanation why the government are paying enormous salaries to its financial consultants - down to 'market rates' contrasts with the salaries paid to medical consultants down to 'what we can afford'. Either it's one or the other.
    And you'd rather we continue to spend enormous salaries on consultants and bankers?
    Last edited by ger12; 30th March 2013 at 02:11 PM.
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    Politics.ie Member Mr. Bumble's Avatar
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    Irish Public Sector -

    Employees: 285,000 Budget 2013 - Statement on the Estimates by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
    Employees earning 100k+: 6,000 (of which, 3,000 are consultants) Obsession with public service allowances overlooks salary cuts already achieved - News Debate | Opinion & Discussion |The Irish Times - Thu, Oct 04, 2012.


    Irish Banking Sector -

    Employees 29,000 Address by Minister Rabbitte to the Irish Bankers Federation National Banking Conference - Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
    Employees earning 100k+: 6,400 6,400 staff at bailed out banks earn over


    Conclusion: If you work in the banking sector you are ten times more likely to be earning 100k+ than if you are a public servant.
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    Politics.ie Member RobertW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bumble View Post
    Conclusion: If you work in the banking sector you are ten times more likely to be earning 100k+ than if you are a public servant.
    Corollary to conclusion: Ireland values money ten times more than the health of its people.

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