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Thread: Proposed pay changes to various government officials.

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    Politics.ie Member Kommunist's Avatar
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    Default Proposed pay changes to various government officials.

    In lieu of this thread, http://www.politics.ie/forum/oireach...os-heroes.html

    I have decided to put together a proposition for posters on politics.ie to possibly discuss/agree/disagree upon in relation to the salaries received by TD's, various ministers, the Taoiseach & the President in Ireland.

    Current salaries:
    Taoiseach: €200,000 euros annually. €110,000 (approximately) in expenses.
    Tánaiste: €184,405 annually. Note, for the Tánaiste the position is "he title is largely honorific" as the constitution does not confer any official powers upon the title holder. (Note, the current Tanaiste is also holder of the Government position for Minister for Foreign Affairs & Trade)
    President of Ireland: €250,000 (approximately). Functions: President of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Largely ceremonial, many "on the advice on the government" or "on advice of the Taoiseach" - The presidential position is a position that in my personal opinions does too little, and earns far too much.

    Also to note, I'd imagine this part President of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is also relatively expensive on the tax payer, for a ceremonial office, seems a tad ridiculous.

    TD's: Teachta Dála - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - The citations are missing but those figures look relatively accurate from the link provided above for one. I am also aware that not all TD's have taken the 90+ thousand euros as a pay scale and some have accepted the average workers wage, admirable!

    The proposed changes:

    Taoiseach: From a huge 200,000 euros the pay scale of the Taoiseach would be reduced to somewhere between 50,000-55,000 euros. In terms of expenses, I would imagine that bringing them down considerably would also be beneficial, however, the Taoiseach does require to travel often both internally and externally when there is a need and as such I do believe that the expenses ought to cover these things as well, so I personally am "ok" with leaving the expenses at 100,000 as long as all the trips that the Taoiseach makes are accounted for from these 100,000.
    Current: 200,000
    Proposed: 50,000-55,000

    Tanaiste: Currently, I am unsure of the annual pay scale the Tanaiste receives on an annual basis as both Tanaiste & Minister, so firstly I would see his prime office (Tanaiste) reduced to 37,000-40,000, largely because this is another ceremonial position that is just a filling in for the Taoiseach, it should not be on such a high salary. Secondly is because the Tanaiste is allowed/capable to hold another government position, in this case Foreign Affairs & Trade, which probably merits its own salary. (One I am not yet currently aware of, googling has not yet provided any results!) If added responsabilities were given to the office of Tanaiste then the discussion would be different.

    Current: 184,000
    Proposed:: 37,000-40,000
    Remove this office entirely, it plays no real role in the government!

    President of Ireland: A laughable amount of money (250,000) for a useless and quiet frankly, irrelevant position in the government and in Irish life. 250,000 euros to stand as some sort of symbol for no executive power, and work "on the advice of the government" is a tad bit to much for my liking.
    Current: 250,000
    Proposed change: 50,000-54,000
    Remove this office entirely, it plays no real role in the government!

    TD's: As some TD's have accepted the average industrial wage, this is what I would strongly support in being a blanket rule for all members of government.
    Current: 94,000 on average, (some are on the average workers wage)
    Proposed: 40,000-45,000.

    Final note regarding the proposed changes to pay scales. In my opinion, the pay of an elected official ought to fluctuate, increasing and decreasing in relativity to how the economy is doing. A national minimum wage exists for everybody else - Why does one not exist for the elected officials?

    I would imagine that any TD/minister/official that is elected and sits on a vast sum of annual pay is not completely in the incentive's to simply "lose" part of his income - The reality is that, exceptional wealth and status does not contribute to the understanding of every day problems in Ireland for elected officials. On the contrary, it creates a bubble that only alienates "them" from "us". These wages are not unrealistic to live by, as many in the country live by them (and lower).

    Any thoughts on these propositions?

    P.S I realize there's no real "power" from an internet forum, but a healthy discussion is still fruitful!
    Last edited by Kommunist; 21st March 2013 at 10:24 PM.
    "The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise." James Larkin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kommunist View Post
    in lieu of this thread, http://www.politics.ie/forum/oireach...os-heroes.html

    i have decided to put together a proposition for posters on politics.ie to possibly discuss/agree/disagree upon in relation to the salaries received by td's, various ministers, the taoiseach & the president in ireland.

    Current salaries:
    Taoiseach: €200,000 euros annually. €110,000 (approximately) in expenses.
    Tánaiste: €184,405 annually. Note, for the tánaiste the position is "he title is largely honorific" as the constitution does not confer any official powers upon the title holder. (note, the current tanaiste is also holder of the government position for minister for foreign affairs & trade)
    president of ireland: €250,000 (approximately). Functions: president of ireland - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    largely ceremonial, many "on the advice on the government" or "on advice of the taoiseach" - the presidential position is a position that in my personal opinions does too little, and earns far too much.

    Also to note, i'd imagine this part president of ireland - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is also relatively expensive on the tax payer, for a ceremonial office, seems a tad ridiculous.

    Td's: teachta dála - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - the citations are missing but those figures look relatively accurate from the link provided above for one. I am also aware that not all td's have taken the 90+ thousand euros as a pay scale and some have accepted the average workers wage, admirable!

    The proposed changes:

    taoiseach: From a huge 200,000 euros the pay scale of the taoiseach would be reduced to somewhere between 50,000-55,000 euros. in terms of expenses, i would imagine that bringing them down considerably would also be beneficial, however, the taoiseach does require to travel often both internally and externally when there is a need and as such i do believe that the expenses ought to cover these things as well, so i personally am "ok" with leaving the expenses at 100,000 as long as all the trips that the taoiseach makes are accounted for from these 100,000.
    current: 200,000
    proposed: 50,000-55,000

    tanaiste: currently, i am unsure of the annual pay scale the tanaiste receives on an annual basis as both tanaiste & minister, so firstly i would see his prime office (tanaiste) reduced to 37,000-40,000, largely because this is another ceremonial position that is just a filling in for the taoiseach, it should not be on such a high salary. Secondly is because the tanaiste is allowed/capable to hold another government position, in this case foreign affairs & trade, which probably merits its own salary. (one i am not yet currently aware of, googling has not yet provided any results!) if added responsabilities were given to the office of tanaiste then the discussion would be different.

    current: 184,000
    proposed:: 37,000-40,000

    president of ireland: a laughable amount of money (250,000) for a useless and quiet frankly, irrelevant position in the government and in irish life. 250,000 euros to stand as some sort of symbol for no executive power, and work "on the advice of the government" is a tad bit to much for my liking.
    current: 250,000
    proposed change: 50,000-54,000

    td's: as some td's have accepted the average industrial wage, this is what i would strongly support in being a blanket rule for all members of government.
    current: 94,000 on average, (some are on the average workers wage)
    proposed: 33,000-37,000.

    final note regarding the proposed changes to pay scales. In my opinion, the pay of an elected official ought to fluctuate, increasing and decreasing in relativity to how the economy is doing. A national minimum wage exists for everybody else - why does one not exist for the elected officials?

    I would imagine that any td/minister/official that is elected and sits on a vast sum of annual pay is not completely in the incentive's to simply "lose" part of his income - the reality is that, exceptional wealth and status does not contribute to the understanding of every day problems in ireland for elected officials. On the contrary, it creates a bubble that only alienates "them" from "us". These wages are not unrealistic to live by, as many in the country live by them (and lower).

    Any thoughts on these propositions?

    P.s i realize there's no real "power" from an internet forum, but a healthy discussion is still fruitful!
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

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    Utterly crazy stuff.
    Redacted.

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member Kommunist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvotingMachine0197 View Post
    Utterly crazy stuff.
    You think bursting the psychological power-trip bubble that politicians get into while leeching off the tax payer is crazy?

    I think you sir, are the crazy one. Emulating an elected free market based dictatorship is not something I support. Though, I'd appreciate a more constructive approach as to why you believe the pay scales ought to remain or not be lowered to such a degree.

    Also, I guess you're one of fourteen whom voted for the option "They earn enough" or "They should be paid more" in the first linked thread.
    "The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise." James Larkin.

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    Politics.ie Member Mr. Bumble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kommunist View Post
    In lieu of this thread, http://www.politics.ie/forum/oireach...os-heroes.html

    I have decided to put together a proposition for posters on politics.ie to possibly discuss/agree/disagree upon in relation to the salaries received by TD's, various ministers, the Taoiseach & the President in Ireland.

    Current salaries:
    Taoiseach: €200,000 euros annually. €110,000 (approximately) in expenses.
    Tánaiste: €184,405 annually. Note, for the Tánaiste the position is "he title is largely honorific" as the constitution does not confer any official powers upon the title holder. (Note, the current Tanaiste is also holder of the Government position for Minister for Foreign Affairs & Trade)
    President of Ireland: €250,000 (approximately). Functions: President of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Largely ceremonial, many "on the advice on the government" or "on advice of the Taoiseach" - The presidential position is a position that in my personal opinions does too little, and earns far too much.

    Also to note, I'd imagine this part President of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is also relatively expensive on the tax payer, for a ceremonial office, seems a tad ridiculous.

    TD's: Teachta Dála - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - The citations are missing but those figures look relatively accurate from the link provided above for one. I am also aware that not all TD's have taken the 90+ thousand euros as a pay scale and some have accepted the average workers wage, admirable!

    The proposed changes:

    Taoiseach: From a huge 200,000 euros the pay scale of the Taoiseach would be reduced to somewhere between 50,000-55,000 euros. In terms of expenses, I would imagine that bringing them down considerably would also be beneficial, however, the Taoiseach does require to travel often both internally and externally when there is a need and as such I do believe that the expenses ought to cover these things as well, so I personally am "ok" with leaving the expenses at 100,000 as long as all the trips that the Taoiseach makes are accounted for from these 100,000.
    Current: 200,000
    Proposed: 50,000-55,000

    Tanaiste: Currently, I am unsure of the annual pay scale the Tanaiste receives on an annual basis as both Tanaiste & Minister, so firstly I would see his prime office (Tanaiste) reduced to 37,000-40,000, largely because this is another ceremonial position that is just a filling in for the Taoiseach, it should not be on such a high salary. Secondly is because the Tanaiste is allowed/capable to hold another government position, in this case Foreign Affairs & Trade, which probably merits its own salary. (One I am not yet currently aware of, googling has not yet provided any results!) If added responsabilities were given to the office of Tanaiste then the discussion would be different.

    Current: 184,000
    Proposed:: 37,000-40,000

    President of Ireland: A laughable amount of money (250,000) for a useless and quiet frankly, irrelevant position in the government and in Irish life. 250,000 euros to stand as some sort of symbol for no executive power, and work "on the advice of the government" is a tad bit to much for my liking.
    Current: 250,000
    Proposed change: 50,000-54,000

    TD's: As some TD's have accepted the average industrial wage, this is what I would strongly support in being a blanket rule for all members of government.
    Current: 94,000 on average, (some are on the average workers wage)
    Proposed: 33,000-37,000.

    Final note regarding the proposed changes to pay scales. In my opinion, the pay of an elected official ought to fluctuate, increasing and decreasing in relativity to how the economy is doing. A national minimum wage exists for everybody else - Why does one not exist for the elected officials?

    I would imagine that any TD/minister/official that is elected and sits on a vast sum of annual pay is not completely in the incentive's to simply "lose" part of his income - The reality is that, exceptional wealth and status does not contribute to the understanding of every day problems in Ireland for elected officials. On the contrary, it creates a bubble that only alienates "them" from "us". These wages are not unrealistic to live by, as many in the country live by them (and lower).

    Any thoughts on these propositions?

    P.S I realize there's no real "power" from an internet forum, but a healthy discussion is still fruitful!
    All TDs take their full wage. Anyway, do you think that paying a TD less than the AIW will have an effect on the quality of our public representatives? Ignoring the facile and inevitable 'they're all useless morons anyway' line, are you seriously suggesting that we pay our members of parliament less than the manager of a shoe shop?
    Cry your hardest now, it opens the lungs, washes the countenance, exercises the eyes and softens down the temper. So cry away.

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    Politics.ie Member Gracchus's Avatar
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    I agree with these payments for the time being anyway. It hasn't been that long since MP's in Westminster were not payed at all.

    I don't believe that people should see a career in politics as a viable career option. It should be seen as you taking a break from your main career to take up service of the state for a period of time. A lot of our politicians have been a greater burden to our state then a group of people who have spent their entire life on the dole. To stop this, pay scales should be reduced to what the OP suggests, and for a limit of two terms or a maximum of ten years as a TD. This would not only root out all the wasters in our political system to go get a real job, it would also open up our national parliament to a much wider audience, which in turn would create a stronger, more accessible and accountable democratic system in our country.
    “The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.” Babeuf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracchus View Post
    I agree with these payments for the time being anyway. It hasn't been that long since MP's in Westminster were not payed at all.

    I don't believe that people should see a career in politics as a viable career option. It should be seen as you taking a break from your main career to take up service of the state for a period of time. A lot of our politicians have been a greater burden to our state then a group of people who have spent their entire life on the dole. To stop this, pay scales should be reduced to what the OP suggests, and for a limit of two terms or a maximum of ten years as a TD. This would not only root out all the wasters in our political system to go get a real job, it would also open up our national parliament to a much wider audience, which in turn would create a stronger, more accessible and accountable democratic system in our country.
    1912 I think, the world has changed since then!

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    Politics.ie Member Kommunist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bumble View Post
    All TDs take their full wage. Anyway, do you think that paying a TD less than the AIW will have an effect on the quality of our public representatives? Ignoring the facile and inevitable 'they're all useless morons anyway' line, are you seriously suggesting that we pay our members of parliament less than the manager of a shoe shop?
    I was under the impression some members of the ULA did not take their full wages as they were entitled too.

    Yes, I believe that TD's don't do as much as they could do in their position to help the people of Ireland because there exists a psychological / economic difference between those in powerful positions and those working at minimum wage and struggling to meet ends. As well as that, it's a lot easier to pay the home tax at 90-100k a year than it is on 30k a year, and that's something else that factors in to how decisions are passed in the Dail. I can bet the TD's of all parties would have been extremely far less likely to pass such a bill when it actually harms them, rather than sitting in their bubble.

    Yes, I am seriously suggesting for you to consider such a 'crazy' notion. Imagine, we cut down on the costs of offices that have small functions yet make hundreds of thousands (?) How crazy. I don't really care how the private market operates, and it should not be compared to the salary of a public servant, after all, the position of being a public servant and representative is not one that exists for an individual to profit off, but to fulfill the promises they were elected upon.

    I forgot to add that I'd really love to see those TD's that do not attend relevant Dail sessions have allowances/pay scales deduced as well (excluding legitimate reasons - Sickness, family death etc) After all businesses, schools, Universities also employ these measures for efficiency is not slacking.

    There is a huge lack of accountability by the government to the people, realistically, bringing their pay scales close to that of the average worker would help bring a lot more accountability in a self-preservation method. The decisions made by the government would affect them more than they do now.
    "The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise." James Larkin.

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    Politics.ie Member Gracchus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanieFitz View Post
    1912 I think, the world has changed since then!
    Not saying we should go back to that.
    “The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last.” Babeuf

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    Politics.ie Member Kommunist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracchus View Post
    I agree with these payments for the time being anyway. It hasn't been that long since MP's in Westminster were not payed at all.

    I don't believe that people should see a career in politics as a viable career option. It should be seen as you taking a break from your main career to take up service of the state for a period of time. A lot of our politicians have been a greater burden to our state then a group of people who have spent their entire life on the dole. To stop this, pay scales should be reduced to what the OP suggests, and for a limit of two terms or a maximum of ten years as a TD. This would not only root out all the wasters in our political system to go get a real job, it would also open up our national parliament to a much wider audience, which in turn would create a stronger, more accessible and accountable democratic system in our country.
    Agreed with everything!

    It boils down to real accountability!
    "The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise." James Larkin.

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