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Thread: To Anyone who thinks the Soviet Union was Socialist....

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    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
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    Default To Anyone who thinks the Soviet Union was Socialist....

    A myth which is commonly promulgated by many posters on this site is that the Soviet Union was Socialist. It is usually used as a boogy-man kind of argument to try and criticise the idea that a Socialist alternative is possible.
    I have continuously refuted this line of thinking by many posters and thought that to create a thread on it to discuss the idea would attempt to settle this argument.

    One of the clearest pieces of evidence is from a quote from Lenin himself, ''While the revolution in Germany is slow in "coming forth," our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it.''-my bold.
    Lenin put forward the view that for Socialism to be achieved, the Soviet Union, a largely agrarian society at the time, had to go through the process of industrialisation to then achieve Socialism. But it never worked out that way, because the Totalitarian system they put in place, with a ''labor army'' and ''maximal leader'', meant that it could not, with the country staying in the State Capitalist phase.

    Prior to 1917, Socialist groups were organising Factory committees, which are organs of worker control of production, which is one of the core principles of Socialism. But the Bolshevists turned against this process in the final weeks of 1917, destroying these Factory committees and ''restoring "law and order" in industry -- a law and order that
    reconsolidated the authoritarian relations in production, which for a brief period had been seriously shaken''-Maurice Brinton, The Bolsheviks and Workers' Control, 1917 to 1921: the State and Counter-Revolution. This is clear evidence that worker control of production, and as a result Socialism, never occurred, with the Bolsheviks beginning the ''restoration of capitalist management of industry.''

    Brinton goes on to say that "Nowhere in Lenin's writings is workers' control ever equated with fundamental decision-taking (i.e. with the initiation of decisions) relating to production.'' This shows that Lenin was interested in centralised control, not workers having their own say. Centralization of the Economy actually grew rapidly during the Civil War period.

    Socialist policies, by definition, are policies which are democratic. To say that Stalin was socialist is ridiculous.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

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    Whatever.

    Marxism is b*llsh*t.

    Human nature hasn't changed for thousands of years and never will change until there is some dramatic evolutionary leap in the far distant future that results in more co-operative or more selfish individuals.

    There is no inevitability we can ever know bout and no reason to believe the future must result in communism.

    There's no way of knowing anything about future events or trends with any accuracy or reliability whatsoever.

    Marx was an infantile idiot:

    "In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."
    Karl Marx, (1845). The German Ideology
    Last edited by Hitch 22; 18th March 2013 at 01:28 AM.

  3. #3
    birthday
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    Quote Originally Posted by james5001 View Post
    A myth which is commonly promulgated by many posters on this site is that the Soviet Union was Socialist. It is usually used as a boogy-man kind of argument to try and criticise the idea that a Socialist alternative is possible.
    I have continuously refuted this line of thinking by many posters and thought that to create a thread on it to discuss the idea would attempt to settle this argument.

    One of the clearest pieces of evidence is from a quote from Lenin himself, ''While the revolution in Germany is slow in "coming forth," our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it.''-my bold.
    Lenin put forward the view that for Socialism to be achieved, the Soviet Union, a largely agrarian society at the time, had to go through the process of industrialisation to then achieve Socialism. But it never worked out that way, because the Totalitarian system they put in place, with a ''labor army'' and ''maximal leader'', meant that it could not, with the country staying in the State Capitalist phase.

    Prior to 1917, Socialist groups were organising Factory committees, which are organs of worker control of production, which is one of the core principles of Socialism. But the Bolshevists turned against this process in the final weeks of 1917, destroying these Factory committees and ''restoring "law and order" in industry -- a law and order that
    reconsolidated the authoritarian relations in production, which for a brief period had been seriously shaken''-Maurice Brinton, The Bolsheviks and Workers' Control, 1917 to 1921: the State and Counter-Revolution. This is clear evidence that worker control of production, and as a result Socialism, never occurred, with the Bolsheviks beginning the ''restoration of capitalist management of industry.''

    Brinton goes on to say that "Nowhere in Lenin's writings is workers' control ever equated with fundamental decision-taking (i.e. with the initiation of decisions) relating to production.'' This shows that Lenin was interested in centralised control, not workers having their own say. Centralization of the Economy actually grew rapidly during the Civil War period.

    Socialist policies, by definition, are policies which are democratic. To say that Stalin was socialist is ridiculous.
    OK, fair enough.
    Please give an example of a successful socialist country. Just one will suffice.

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birthday View Post
    OK, fair enough.
    Please give an example of a successful socialist country. Just one will suffice.
    There's your problem. A country can be composed of many co-operatives and socialist groups but I think it's be false to describe any country as ''socialist''.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

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    Politics.ie Member Davy Broderick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birthday View Post
    OK, fair enough.
    Please give an example of a successful socialist country. Just one will suffice.
    sweden

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    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitch 22 View Post
    Whatever.

    Marxism is b*llsh*t.

    Human nature hasn't changed for thousands of years and never will change until there is some dramatic evolutionary leap in the far distant future that results in more co-operative or more selfish individuals.

    There is no inevitability we can ever know bout and no reason to believe the future must result in communism.

    There's no way of knowing anything about future events or trends with any accuracy or reliability whatsoever.
    So you agree with what I am saying?
    No-one knows what human nature is composed of or what its foundation is composed of, if it has any foundation. It is too complex.
    I was making the point that Lenin thought that the progression would result in Communism, I didn't say that I believed in it.
    And regarding your last point- One can determine the probable course of certain events using evidence.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

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    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
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    Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics.

    But, the results damage the brand.

    And damage to the brand damage those have this as their career/solution/family business.

    Therefore, let's do a rebranding exercise.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Hitch 22;6545966]

    Marx was an infantile idiot:
    [QUOTE]

    How is what he said there idiotic? He's making the point there that people shouldn't have to do one specific job for their whole lives.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

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    Politics.ie Member Druidess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davy Broderick View Post
    sweden
    Sweden is not a socialist country, it merely has some policies borrowed from socialism such as a state provided, subsidised childcare scheme.

    The free market is very much alive in Sweden.
    The facts and nothing but the facts.

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics.

    But, the results damage the brand.

    And damage to the brand damage those have this as their career/solution/family business.

    Therefore, let's do a rebranding exercise.
    The Democratic People's Republic of Korea
    See what i did there?
    Sometimes people tell fibs.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

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