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Thread: The Civil War: Why did Dev's mob not invade the six Counties?

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    Default The Civil War: Why did Dev's mob not invade the six Counties?

    It just beggars belief! The whole Civil War. Ever since the Unionists imported arms on a massive scale the Nationalists knew they were not getting a 32 County State. At any rate there was no prospect of a peaceful 32 County State.

    The Ulster Covenant and the importation of arms by Unionists put the gun into Irish politics. The so called Civil War has framed and shaped the nature of Irish politics since.

    One of the peculiar aspects of the Civil War is that it was all but exclusively fought in the 26 Counties.
    Why did the anti treaty forces not just invade the 6 northern counties or limit their activities to that area?

    Instead they attacked the part that was freed?

    One obvious reason was that they would have been facing unsurmountable military opposition there.

    The option of refusing the Anglo Irish Treaty would have delivered nothing!

    Just what was the Civil War all about?

    Was it just about venting fustration at former comrades?

    What Collins setteled for in 1921 Dev settled for in 1927 and Gerry and Martin settled for in 1998!

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    Politics.ie Member ruserious's Avatar
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    Because they were trounced back into Munster initially before being assaulted from the sea all over county Cork.
    Certa Bonum Certamen.
    Boycott the "Irish" Sun rag.

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    they couldn't get past Tipperary - let alone make it to Cavan
    A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman thinks of the next generation. - James Freeman Clarke

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    Politics.ie Member mickterry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IbrahaimMohamad View Post
    It just beggars belief! The whole Civil War. Ever since the Unionists imported arms on a massive scale the Nationalists knew they were not getting a 32 County State. At any rate there was no prospect of a peaceful 32 County State.

    The Ulster Covenant and the importation of arms by Unionists put the gun into Irish politics. The so called Civil War has framed and shaped the nature of Irish politics since.

    One of the peculiar aspects of the Civil War is that it was all but exclusively fought in the 26 Counties.
    Why did the anti treaty forces not just invade the 6 northern counties or limit their activities to that area?

    Instead they attacked the part that was freed?

    One obvious reason was that they would have been facing unsurmountable military opposition there.

    The option of refusing the Anglo Irish Treaty would have delivered nothing!

    Just what was the Civil War all about?

    Was it just about venting fustration at former comrades?

    What Collins setteled for in 1921 Dev settled for in 1927 and Gerry and Martin settled for in 1998!
    There were more counties used for executions than were involved in the fighting during the civil war

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IbrahaimMohamad View Post
    Just what was the Civil War all about?
    I could never understand how so many friends could kill each other over so little until I saw the split that took place over Saipan. Sometimes we are not very rational people

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    Politics.ie Member Brenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IbrahaimMohamad View Post
    It just beggars belief! The whole Civil War. Ever since the Unionists imported arms on a massive scale the Nationalists knew they were not getting a 32 County State. At any rate there was no prospect of a peaceful 32 County State.

    The Ulster Covenant and the importation of arms by Unionists put the gun into Irish politics. The so called Civil War has framed and shaped the nature of Irish politics since.

    One of the peculiar aspects of the Civil War is that it was all but exclusively fought in the 26 Counties.
    Why did the anti treaty forces not just invade the 6 northern counties or limit their activities to that area?

    Instead they attacked the part that was freed?

    One obvious reason was that they would have been facing unsurmountable military opposition there.

    The option of refusing the Anglo Irish Treaty would have delivered nothing!

    Just what was the Civil War all about?

    Was it just about venting fustration at former comrades?

    What Collins setteled for in 1921 Dev settled for in 1927 and Gerry and Martin settled for in 1998!
    There was IRA activity north of the border but the presence of blood thirsty Unionist groups like the B-specials meant that things were going to get messy if there was an assault. The b-specials and their ilk needed little excuse to murder Catholics and if there actually had been a serious attack on the northern Unionists they would have responded by wiping out the Catholic population of Belfast. The few solitary attacks on members of the security forces in the north during the War of Independence often resulted in inordinately large reprisals, basically they were saying if you kill one of ours we'll kill ten of yours and burn about 160 houses to go along with it.

    Also, many believe that Collins did not settle for anything in 1921 and it seems that after the Truce he started to covertly ramp up the IRA activity in the north and this did result in a number of fatalities, both security forces and civilians (mainly Catholic). Collins got side-tracked by the Civil War then but many believe that once that was dealt with he was going to resume a full-scale attempt to subvert the northern state by funding the IRA activity in the area. He died so we'll never know what would have happened.

    There's a number of threads on this site about what Franck Aiken got up to in June 1922, you should have a look, also try google Altnaveigh.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...man-peace.html

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...ssessment.html

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    Politics.ie Member Baztard's Avatar
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    Because perhaps they were a shower of spineless ************************s!

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    Politics.ie Member Brenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IbrahaimMohamad View Post
    It just beggars belief! The whole Civil War. Ever since the Unionists imported arms on a massive scale the Nationalists knew they were not getting a 32 County State. At any rate there was no prospect of a peaceful 32 County State.

    The Ulster Covenant and the importation of arms by Unionists put the gun into Irish politics. The so called Civil War has framed and shaped the nature of Irish politics since.

    One of the peculiar aspects of the Civil War is that it was all but exclusively fought in the 26 Counties.
    Why did the anti treaty forces not just invade the 6 northern counties or limit their activities to that area?

    Instead they attacked the part that was freed?

    One obvious reason was that they would have been facing unsurmountable military opposition there.

    The option of refusing the Anglo Irish Treaty would have delivered nothing!

    Just what was the Civil War all about?

    Was it just about venting fustration at former comrades?

    What Collins setteled for in 1921 Dev settled for in 1927 and Gerry and Martin settled for in 1998!
    Anti-treaty forces didn't regard the 26 counties as 'freed' since there hadn't been a full break from the crown established. Also (and this always confounds me) partition of the North wasn't actually the number one grievance with the anti-treaty side, dominion status bothered them far more, we look back now at the truce and all we can see is partition but when you read accounts of the time everyone is giving out about swearing allegiance to the King. I think a lot of people didn't take the Northern Irish state seriously until the boundary commission.

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    Politics.ie Member Beachcomber's Avatar
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    The Civil War: Why did Dev's mob not invade the six Counties?

    Short answer: they were too busy taking on the pro-Treaty forces.

    Longer answer: the issue became the whole Treaty, and not just partition. Dev's lot refused to accept the Treaty and decided to fight about that issue. That meant taking on their former comrades on the issue of accepting less than the 32 county Irish Republic. Meanwhile the unionists looked south and smiled at the 'republicans' fighting each other. As it turned out Dev's anti-Treaty bunch couldn't even deal with the pro-Treaty forces, never mind start a second front by attacking NI.
    satisfied with frugal comfort

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    Politics.ie Member Beachcomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenny View Post
    There was IRA activity north of the border but the presence of blood thirsty Unionist groups like the B-specials meant that things were going to get messy if there was an assault. The b-specials and their ilk needed little excuse to murder Catholics and if there actually had been a serious attack on the northern Unionists they would have responded by wiping out the Catholic population of Belfast. The few solitary attacks on members of the security forces in the north during the War of Independence often resulted in inordinately large reprisals, basically they were saying if you kill one of ours we'll kill ten of yours and burn about 160 houses to go along with it.

    Also, many believe that Collins did not settle for anything in 1921 and it seems that after the Truce he started to covertly ramp up the IRA activity in the north and this did result in a number of fatalities, both security forces and civilians (mainly Catholic). Collins got side-tracked by the Civil War then but many believe that once that was dealt with he was going to resume a full-scale attempt to subvert the northern state by funding the IRA activity in the area. He died so we'll never know what would have happened.

    There's a number of threads on this site about what Franck Aiken got up to in June 1922, you should have a look, also try google Altnaveigh.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...man-peace.html

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...ssessment.html


    "Franck Aiken"?

    Are you referring to the sectarian murderer?
    satisfied with frugal comfort

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