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Thread: Is it a democracy if the rulers don't mind not being re-elected for imposing the demands of foreign powers?

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    Default Is it a democracy if the rulers don't mind not being re-elected for imposing the demands of foreign powers?

    Whether it's Monti in Italy or Cowen in Ireland, the pattern is the same: foreigners, and mostly unelected foreigners at that, make demands and the elected officials force them through. For going directly against the will of the people, Monti and Cowen and Wilders et al get wiped out at election time, garnering pathetic shares of the vote.

    They know this is what will happen, but they do it regardless.

    What position does that leave democracy in? When the people state, in as clear a fashion as is possible, "you cannot do this thing" and the ruler does it anyway.

    I'm reminded of Franco, after he took power in Spain. He recognised the debts taken on by the Republican government against his wishes. However, this had no tinge of hypocrisy to it, as Franco was a sworn enemy of democracy and had consistently held the position that the Caudillo had total personal power to decide on what debts were sovereign or not.

    The whole case for representative democracy as an acceptable alternative to direct democracy is that fear of not winning re-election will act as a deterrent to going contrary to the popular will.

    The problem with that theory is that we've just done a bunch of controlled experiments in the recent crisis, and the results did not match the theory's prediction. Ergo, the theory would appear to be wrong.

    Certainly, brutal austerity, in the last century of capitalism has in most cases been carried out by fascist military junta governments who have a specific, openly anti-democratic agenda. This is the first time we have seen a wave of austerian attacks carried out by a bunch of governments who do not openly oppose democracy, and all of whom, in fact, claim to be democrats.

    So what are the implications for democracy in the future, now that we know that, when push comes to shove, the will of the people is not a relevant factor in the decision-making process?
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member drummed's Avatar
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    Franco paid every last cent of Spainish debt regardless of who incurred it (he ran up most of it himself during the war).


    When we elected the current goverment what do you think we expected? Tax breaks and wage increases? It was always going to be like this and will be unless we can live within our means. Until then we rely on the kindness of strangers. Democracy of the sort you seem to desire (which probably never existed anyway) costs. Are you as willing to pay for it as you are to start silly threads?

    Cut a few billion off national spending and you can have all the democracy you want. Good luck with getting elected with that plan.
    Сохранить Украины

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    Quote Originally Posted by drummed View Post
    Franco paid every last cent of Spanish debt regardless of who incurred it (he ran up most of it himself during the war).
    Yes, that's what I said.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
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    Democracy ended when the EU decided that the Danish No vote to the Maastricht Treaty was not satisfactory.

    Shortly afterwards, the Irish got bribed, to vote yes. And we enjoyed the bribe.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drummed View Post
    Franco paid every last cent of Spainish debt regardless of who incurred it (he ran up most of it himself during the war).


    When we elected the current goverment what do you think we expected? Tax breaks and wage increases? It was always going to be like this and will be unless we can live within our means. Until then we rely on the kindness of strangers. Democracy of the sort you seem to desire (which probably never existed anyway) costs. Are you as willing to pay for it as you are to start silly threads?

    Cut a few billion off national spending and you can have all the democracy you want. Good luck with getting elected with that plan.
    Broadly speaking, you're saying one must choose between having money or the vote. I choose the latter, because without the vote, your money will be gone soon anyway.

    Even in China, which is the only significant non-democracy (apart from fossil fuel exporters like Russia and Saudi Arabia) where any kind of prosperity is slightly widespread, the vast majority of people are one missed paycheck away from being penniless and dependent on family for survival, and those families in their turn are dependent on every paycheck with no cushion in case of bad luck.

    With few exceptions, non-democracy and poverty are one and the same, unless you happen to be sitting on a mountain of fossil oil wealth.
    Last edited by feargach; 6th March 2013 at 04:08 PM.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member Aindriu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummed View Post
    Democracy of the sort you seem to desire never existed anyway
    Fixed that for ye Drummed.
    If you continue to elect idiots in elections, don't be surprised when the result is an idiotic government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    Democracy ended when the EU decided that the Danish No vote to the Maastricht Treaty was not satisfactory.

    Shortly afterwards, the Irish got bribed, to vote yes. And we enjoyed the bribe.
    So are you suggesting we should re-institute democracy, or are you writing it off forever?
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aindriu View Post
    Fixed that for ye Drummed.
    There's never been a society where people don't get raped.

    Should we quit trying to prevent rapes?
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member Plebian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    Whether it's Monti in Italy or Cowen in Ireland, the pattern is the same: foreigners, and mostly unelected foreigners at that, make demands and the elected officials force them through. For going directly against the will of the people, Monti and Cowen and Wilders et al get wiped out at election time, garnering pathetic shares of the vote.

    They know this is what will happen, but they do it regardless.

    What position does that leave democracy in? When the people state, in as clear a fashion as is possible, "you cannot do this thing" and the ruler does it anyway.

    I'm reminded of Franco, after he took power in Spain. He recognised the debts taken on by the Republican government against his wishes. However, this had no tinge of hypocrisy to it, as Franco was a sworn enemy of democracy and had consistently held the position that the Caudillo had total personal power to decide on what debts were sovereign or not.

    The whole case for representative democracy as an acceptable alternative to direct democracy is that fear of not winning re-election will act as a deterrent to going contrary to the popular will.

    The problem with that theory is that we've just done a bunch of controlled experiments in the recent crisis, and the results did not match the theory's prediction. Ergo, the theory would appear to be wrong.

    Certainly, brutal austerity, in the last century of capitalism has in most cases been carried out by fascist military junta governments who have a specific, openly anti-democratic agenda. This is the first time we have seen a wave of austerian attacks carried out by a bunch of governments who do not openly oppose democracy, and all of whom, in fact, claim to be democrats.

    So what are the implications for democracy in the future, now that we know that, when push comes to shove, the will of the people is not a relevant factor in the decision-making process?
    There's a price to be paid for true democracy, that price is one of holding those you elect to account. If the majority of people are too scared or indifferent to tackle the people they've elected who've reneged on their promises, then the electorate have to shoulder some of the blame. We had it here with most people claiming that the majority didn't agree with the bailout, those people could have marched on Leinster House and demanded a referendum or election. They didn't, they complained and waited until the Govt threw itself out, then they elected another version of the same people that agreed to the deal and then moaned about it again, and then they had a referendum on the FST another bailout mechanism and they signed up for it. Either get the pitchforks out or stop complaining when the Europhiles you elect do what you knew they were always going to do in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Des Valera View Post
    We "expected" what Fine Gael and Labour said they would do. Is that too much to "expect"?
    Yes, it is.

    Both are a part of the establishment status quo. Both parties are filled with dinosaurs with draconian ideas that have never had an independent thought in their entire careers. Prior to the last General Election, any individual that devoted ten minutes out of their day to research the history of the people that plague both parties would be fully aware of this.

    The problem is that there is no alternative and to be quite honest with you, there is very limited desire for it among the political class. They are where they are precisely because of the current system. It's one thing to promise to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic but Enda and Eamon are not capable of grasping the concept of change on the level that the Irish people want.

    The level of change that the Irish people desire would turn the stomach of every Parish-pumper from Duncormick to Dunfanaghy.

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