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Thread: In defense of the Flag protesters

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    Politics.ie Member Mr Aphorisms's Avatar
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    Default In defense of the Flag protesters

    I have attacked the flag protesters in the 6 county state for being backward, outdated and so on. However, in college, I am frequently derided as 'the political guy', in a good way, mind you. Today, I was asked 'how do you know all of this stuff', it was regarding 9/11 or something like that. I am not even bragging saying that, it relates to the thread, but it did get me thinking.

    It has been said to me before and I always say I have much to learn and I really do. But as a young male in the South, I have been asked this question before about 'knowing things'. I've said on here that I had a woman (now doing a course in a DBS or something, I believe) nearly wet herself (not in a good way) when she saw my bookshelf with, at the time, about 10 or 15 books. There is a contempt for knowledge (outside of college it should be said, the 26 counties contain one of the most educated populaces in the world) and anyone seen as interested in politics is viewed as a bit mad or 'he's yer man mad into the politics', especially when you go on a bit of a rant, throwing out facts, figures, statistics and so on (had a few 'old' I.R.A. good, P.I.R.A. bad' debates).

    I have no doubt about the stupidity of most of the flag protesters and the Nolan show encapsulated their decadence, backwardness and inability to articulate a coherent reason to what it means to be British. However, that said, at least they actually care about their country and culture. At least their young go out and defend their culture. At least those young lads and females on the Nolan show bought a ticket to the show and confronted politicians who they view as trying to eviscerate their British culture and their flag.

    The people who rioted at the Love Ulster parades (in the same category as young rioters over the flag) I believe, would, a), not have the balls to go on national television and b), couldn't be arsed about making their views heard by paying money to sit in an audience.

    I can't believe I am saying this but fair play to Willie Frazer. He is the most nonobjective, unlettered and crazed individual I have ever looked in to (after Hitler, Mao, Stalin and the gang), but at least he stands up for his community. Sadly, his father was killed by the I.R.A. and his contempt for republicans is odious at times, but understandable. He does not forget the past. He brings an 'it was all the I.R.A.'s fault' folly to his theories, but still, at least he pulls no punches and fights for what he believes in.

    Where in the South are our Willie Frazer's? Where were they in the late 60's and early 70's? Where were the 26 county States young out perpetually protesting at all of the injustices in the North before and during the Troubles? I seem to recall a lot of protest for the International Hunger Striker event and a few other instances, such as another International event, Bloody Sunday, but on a whole, they were not there. In fact, the question should be asked: where were the 26 county states population at all over the North and in particular, the socioeconomic injustices in their state?

    I hope this thread does not get zooed or deleted because I mention a poster on here, but I came across this post by Sideysghost. A poster whose contempt for the people in the South during the Troubles is perfectly legitimate and understandable. However, and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him, he made this post which questioned the idea of Ireland and the Irish. It was a very interesting post and verily, it hit the nail on the head:

    +1

    Unfortunately the vast bulk of the population now are shoneens, gobdaws, gombeens and snivelling grovellers.

    Ireland no longer exists, at least not the Ireland any of our ancestors fought for all those centuries. It's sad, but there it is, nothing to be done, what remains is too debased and degenerate and corrupted to be saved.

    Generations of patriot dead suffered and died for hundreds of years to allow this shower of snivelling self-loathing bling-obsessed infantile reprobates free reign to make Ireland a global laughing-stock?

    Ireland no longer exists within the geographical confines of this island in the Atlantic. The culture here now isn't remotely or in any way identifiable as Irish and neither are the people.
    http://www.politics.ie/forum/sinn-fe...-cares-11.html

    Before the Easter Rising, James Connolly wrote:

    We are out for Ireland for the Irish. But who are the Irish? Not the rack-renting, slum-owning landlord; not the sweating, profit-grinding capitalist; not the sleek and oily lawyer; not the prostitute pressman – the hired liars of the enemy. Not these are the Irish upon whom the future depends. Not these, but the Irish working class, the only secure foundation upon which a free nation can be reared.
    James Connolly: Irish Flag (1916)

    That was true in Connolly's day, but are the Irish working class the true Irish today? According to Sidey, no. Also, most of the Irish working class and middle class try and be like the English. Shows such as Take Me Out and Geordie Shore have been copied by the Irish. The Irish versions are the antithesis to the British shows: low on wit, humor, sarcasm and the lads on Tallafornia try cripplingly to be like their English counterparts and couldn't pull a plastic off of a capri sun straw. Are these 'the only secure foundation upon which a free nation can be reared.'? I am not sure.

    Instead, the vast majority of Ireland's youth know little about anything Irish. Most cannot speak the language, have absolutely no rudimentary historical knowledge of Ireland, its struggles, major men and women, think Wolfe Tone is only a band, despise the culture, the middle class hate their own accents and try and be American and then there is the thing where it is great to hate everything that's Irish, except drug dealer shows such as Love/Hate.

    It's that time of the year again when the Irish will show the world how proud they are by perpetuating negative stereotypes about themselves by getting absolutely hammered and bragging 'we'll drink you under the table.' I'll probably be hammered myself, but I do not hold myself up as a patriot or shout out this retarded platitude '100% Irish.' I do a few timid things such as protesting and so fourth. A wimp and tea drinker I am sure Connolly and others would have called me, probably some truth in that too.

    I do not think that grandiose men such as the United Irishmen fought for this Ireland. I do not think John Mitchell would have taken to the ineffable paddywhackery today. I do not think that James Connolly, a teetotaler, would have imagined the Irish people turning into such self haters and demanding anyone with republican and nationalist tendencies to be ostracised as a lunatic 'living in the past.' I believe if Connolly came back today, he wouldn't last 5 minutes with most working class people: 'he doesn't drink? what a bleedin' dope. What sort of Irishman is he?'

    So, whilst the working class loyalists get out and protest over their 'fleg', the republican movement should be in awe of their indefatigable ability to protest and how they stand up for their culture and community. No matter how much we disagree with it. We could do with Willie Frazer's determination in the 26 county state among our working class.

    I expect a backlash from all sides, but it is the simply truth. The Irish nation, people, struggle, pride and what not is dead and it is never, ever returning. It has been confined to the dust bins of history. One has to congratulate the media and the politicians for this. They played a blinder, along with the Catholic Church, and actually convinced people that the 'old' I.R.A. did not kill innocent people, unlike the provo's and for our more intelligent Shoneens, the 'old' I.R.A. did kill innocent people and they ethnic cleansed Protestants. To end with a quote from a sacred poster, Cael:

    One thing you have to admire about the English is that when their country is attacked by foreign invaders, their first reaction is to join the resistance to it. The first reaction among many of the Irish is see how much money they can get for helping to put down the resistance.
    I hate money making men - Alexander Hamilton

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    Politics.ie Member TiredOfBeingTired's Avatar
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    You are writing near the Anniversary of Yeats' poem "September 1913".
    He had the same idea 100 years ago.
    Can both of you be right?

    "What need you, being come to sense,
    But fumble in a greasy till
    And add the halfpence to the pence
    And prayer to shivering prayer, until
    You have dried the marrow from the bone;
    For men were born to pray and save;
    Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
    It's with O'Leary in the grave."
    September 1913 (poem) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you were to refer to O'Leary now, people would assume Mick not John.
    John O'Leary (Fenian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Sometimes there is very little between historical and hysterical. One passes for the other. In time, the former remains forever, the latter is quickly replaced...

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    Politics.ie Member between the bridges's Avatar
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    More anal ballix from the producers of classics such as http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...-fighters.html
    Nec Aspera Terrent..Is Tuaisceart-Éireannach mé. Má tá meas agat ar mo chultúr, beidh meas agam ar do chultúr.

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    Politics.ie Member Mr Aphorisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    More anal ballix from the producers of classics such as http://www.politics.ie/forum/history...-fighters.html
    It was a very good thread that one. There's a few posts I intend to get back to on that as well. Few self hating paddies on here pretending to be English, thinking they're the James Dean of political forums.

    That's another thing that not even Sideysghost mentioned, as far as I am ware. The confusion of some Irish people on here who think they're British and also, the growing number of posters on here who are actually claiming to be English, attacking the P.I.R.A and republicans and not at all interested in any other topic. Strange for a few reasons, sad for many. This place has characters that are comparable to Toy Story. Sure, we even have some fella who believes he was in the British army.
    I hate money making men - Alexander Hamilton

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    The dominant cultural narrative of the 26 counties for most of the last 40 years has been the cleansing of the sin of Original Irishness. This cultural cringe, combined with a long-standing anti-intellectual streak, has been lethal. As you say, to pretty much any southerner these days, actually knowing anything about Irish history is greeted first with shock and surprise and then with deep suspicion. It's a deeply suspicious, dangerous and subversive act to know anything about the history and cultural traditions of Ireland.

    "Knowing stuff" is suspicious enough at the best of times. "Knowing stuff" about Ireland puts you waaaaaaay beyond the boundaries of acceptable southern society. You have people living in housing estates with names containing "Shire" or "Kensington Gardens" or some such pretentious wannabe-English claptrap, watching Eastenders and US cop shows, then going to some soulless drinking shed with a stupid name on a Sunday in order to drink crap lagers and watch the EPL while discussing Anglo-American celebrity gossip in that awful affected invented Mid-Atlantic accent.

    It's like some kind of bizarre experiment, a colonial theme park, not an actual country. And it wheels out the dusty fossils of 19th-Century stage-Oirish Paddywhackery every March 17th, themselves all imports from Boston and New York, which they then unashamedly attempt to flog to the world as authentic culture.

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    Most people in the south, got the run of themselves with the celtic tiger. I remember being at a wedding in Dublin, at the height of the boom. It would have made you sick, listening to conversations, mostly centred around money. Me Me Me.
    The northern accent, raised an eyebrow or two as well (trouble maker).
    I felt like a tourist, in Malaga, St.Tropez or something.
    No sign of any revolutionary spirit, about anything. No sign of any sympathy for those at the bottom of the heap.
    I was in Kilmainham jail last week, standing in the execution yard, hearing the stories of the men of 1916. While 3 hours earlier, spoke to a worker at Newgrange. The Newgrange worker TOLD me that the flag dispute/trouble in the North was down to Republicans/trouble makers...and how all his family thought so. Kin'da makes you wonder.....

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    Politics.ie Member Mr Aphorisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SideysGhost View Post
    The dominant cultural narrative of the 26 counties for most of the last 40 years has been the cleansing of the sin of Original Irishness. This cultural cringe, combined with a long-standing anti-intellectual streak, has been lethal. As you say, to pretty much any southerner these days, actually knowing anything about Irish history is greeted first with shock and surprise and then with deep suspicion. It's a deeply suspicious, dangerous and subversive act to know anything about the history and cultural traditions of Ireland.

    "Knowing stuff" is suspicious enough at the best of times. "Knowing stuff" about Ireland puts you waaaaaaay beyond the boundaries of acceptable southern society. You have people living in housing estates with names containing "Shire" or "Kensington Gardens" or some such pretentious wannabe-English claptrap, watching Eastenders and US cop shows, then going to some soulless drinking shed with a stupid name on a Sunday in order to drink crap lagers and watch the EPL while discussing Anglo-American celebrity gossip in that awful affected invented Mid-Atlantic accent.

    It's like some kind of bizarre experiment, a colonial theme park, not an actual country. And it wheels out the dusty fossils of 19th-Century stage-Oirish Paddywhackery every March 17th, themselves all imports from Boston and New York, which they then unashamedly attempt to flog to the world as authentic culture.
    Don't get me wrong, Sidey. I'm all for a laugh and having the craic and as I said, I'll be engaging in a bit of paddywhackery soon enough, still recovering from a bit last week. But a line has to be drawn at some stage. The people in the South are more worried about being tagged in Facebook pictures than stopping the gombeens running wild in this country. I saw a hysterical Southern species today screaming about not being tagged on a Facebook picture.

    I know protesting can be futile, but it can have benefits, look at the pensioners a few year ago. But when you say you actually go out and protest, it is like you're wearing the SS uniform. 'Ah here, man. You need to relax.' And don't go talking about the 1916 Rising either, was told today 'sure that was ages ago.' Then, straight after, the individual shouted across to someone else, 'put on the Harlem shake.' Good he has his priorities in order.

    The unionists have to be admired in my view. They experience the same TV culture, video game culture, music culture and everything, yet still, regardless of how silly some act, at least they stand up for their fleg. They are loud and proud. Sure, even Jim Allister stood up in the European Parliament and slags off the Irish language and asks whats the purpose of it? A bit of a bigot, but again, our politicians couldn't even speak during the 60's and 70's. The contempt for the South by nationalists and unionists is understandable and deserved. Probably the only thing in common both communities have with each other.
    I hate money making men - Alexander Hamilton

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    Politics.ie Member Mr Aphorisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gako View Post
    Most people in the south, got the run of themselves with the celtic tiger. I remember being at a wedding in Dublin, at the height of the boom. It would have made you sick, listening to conversations, mostly centred around money. Me Me Me.
    The northern accent, raised an eyebrow or two as well (trouble maker).
    I felt like a tourist, in Malaga, St.Tropez or something.
    No sign of any revolutionary spirit, about anything. No sign of any sympathy for those at the bottom of the heap.
    I was in Kilmainham jail last week, standing in the execution yard, hearing the stories of the men of 1916. While 3 hours earlier, spoke to a worker at Newgrange. The Newgrange worker TOLD me that the flag dispute/trouble in the North was down to Republicans/trouble makers...and how all his family thought so. Kin'da makes you wonder.....
    Ah, sure here, if you have that accent or a working class Dublin accent you're not taken seriously. Also, the new self hatred of the working class who believe that they're middle class is astonishing. The media is at fault for all of this. What is even worse is when Family Guy or the Simpsons portray the Irish as a backward and a country suffering with grotesque dipsomania, it is met with 'yeah, that's us all right. Aren't we bleedin' deadly? Haha, we'd out drink the Brits any day.'

    Sideys quote in the OP is actually scary. The Irish nation really is dead. It has been eviscerated. He is 100% right, it is a colonial theme park.
    I hate money making men - Alexander Hamilton

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    Politics.ie Member rmn640's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Aphorisms View Post
    The unionists have to be admired in my view. They experience the same TV culture, video game culture, music culture and everything, yet still, regardless of how silly some act, at least they stand up for their fleg. They are loud and proud. Sure, even Jim Allister stood up in the European Parliament and slags off the Irish language and asks whats the purpose of it? A bit of a bigot, but again, our politicians couldn't even speak during the 60's and 70's.
    It's not just unionists, it's all nordies in general who are a damn sight more vocal when it comes to the whole flegs and culture thing. You southerners are seen as a bit soft

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    Quote Originally Posted by SideysGhost View Post
    The dominant cultural narrative of the 26 counties for most of the last 40 years has been the cleansing of the sin of Original Irishness. This cultural cringe, combined with a long-standing anti-intellectual streak, has been lethal. As you say, to pretty much any southerner these days, actually knowing anything about Irish history is greeted first with shock and surprise and then with deep suspicion. It's a deeply suspicious, dangerous and subversive act to know anything about the history and cultural traditions of Ireland.

    "Knowing stuff" is suspicious enough at the best of times. "Knowing stuff" about Ireland puts you waaaaaaay beyond the boundaries of acceptable southern society. You have people living in housing estates with names containing "Shire" or "Kensington Gardens" or some such pretentious wannabe-English claptrap, watching Eastenders and US cop shows, then going to some soulless drinking shed with a stupid name on a Sunday in order to drink crap lagers and watch the EPL while discussing Anglo-American celebrity gossip in that awful affected invented Mid-Atlantic accent.

    It's like some kind of bizarre experiment, a colonial theme park, not an actual country. And it wheels out the dusty fossils of 19th-Century stage-Oirish Paddywhackery every March 17th, themselves all imports from Boston and New York, which they then unashamedly attempt to flog to the world as authentic culture.
    Sadly, I find myself agreeing with this.

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