Follow @PoliticsIE
 
 
 
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38

Thread: Is clientelism a particularly Catholic/Orthodox practice?

  1. #1

    Default Is clientelism a particularly Catholic/Orthodox practice?

    The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
    My political compass:
    Economic Left/Right: -5.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.64

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern Ireland - without forgiveness, there is dysfunctionality.
    Posts
    46,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FloatingVoterTralee View Post
    The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
    Perhaps this might have been true in the 1600s, when Protestant culture in Northern Europe emphasised frugality, self-sufficiency, moral righteousness, hard work, honest effort, etc.

    One could argue that the Protestant work ethic has lapsed, and in some cases even wound down to nothing, thanks to the manufacturing of consent.

    Salvation coming from the local discount retailer.

    Well, the way I look at it the Protestant Work ethic is dying. Just look at the North of Ireland. A solid proportion of the population are more interested in symbolism, Rangers, and welfare freebies than in getting work.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    133
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    It's a practice which is practised wherever clans, families,groups,organisations,friends,churches ,companies,rugby etc are important

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Flanders
    Posts
    6,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Have you looked at Indian, Pakistani or Thai politics recently (to take three different religions)

    Take off the blinkers.. Catholics are not inherently more corrupt than Prods. Societies are bigger and more complex than that.

    Southern Germany & Austria are Catholic in majority and as straight as any Nordic state.

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern Ireland - without forgiveness, there is dysfunctionality.
    Posts
    46,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    In Ireland, clientelism is exists independent of religious observance. There probably is an element in the traditional catholic population that abhorred it - Ireland's Catholic Puritan element if you could call it that - that expected people to behave like Presbyterian hardliners in respect to work and money.

    But that tradition has been successfully pulverised into an insignificant level, to be point of near non-existence.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Royalty toxic avenger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    19,031
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    The largest denomination in Germany is Catholic. Meanwhile the UK, a Protestant country, has not been 'fiscally prudent' any more than Ireland has (and has been saved by being able to float its own currency) and a quick browse of Private Eye any week will tell you all you need to know about corruption and clientilism in British politics.

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Member gerhard dengler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    47,431
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)

    Default

    Was the Reformation a religious inspired event?
    Or was the Reformation a culturally inspired event?

    It’s my understanding that the Reformation was primarily a religious inspired event.
    The Reformers were Roman Catholics in origin and training, who as they saw it,
    sought to reform Roman Catholicism.

    The dictionary tells me that clientelism is a social order which depends on patronage.

    Many societies which were greatly influenced by the Reformation still retained political
    systems that operated upon patronage.
    For example, Germany the centre of the Reformation, had a series of provincial monarchs ruling regions until 1871.
    The Netherland political system comprised of regents and viscounts, all part of the House of Orange.

    Separately, the 4 economic engines of Europe are predominantly Roman Catholic.
    Baden Wurttemburg (Germany), Northern Italy, Catalunya (Spain) are predominantly Roman Catholic regions.
    Politics.ie moderators should moderate instead.
    Welcome to Political Irish | Political Irish

  8. #8
    Politics.ie Member The Field Marshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Imperial Throne
    Posts
    44,291
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walrusgumble View Post
    More self loathing Irish and in particular anti Catholic threads. What a surprise. Nothing better to do ?


    Clientelism happens in many Western Societies. Granted, it is rife in the South

    Think American Politicians give a ************************ for the working class who has no prospects of giving donations?
    I think your being a little unfair on the OP.

    IMV he is starting a discussion about why "catholic" and "protestant" societies differ with regard to clientalism and the abuse of privilidge.

    There is no doubt but that traditionaly the work ethic of Northern European mainly protestant countries is higher than the catholic south of Europe.

    I blame it on climate more than religion.

    However it by no means a cut and dried question.
    Repeal the thirty-fourth amendment of the Irish constitution :
    Children have a basic right to be reared by a mother and a father.

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Member PO'Neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Hill 16, Croke Park.
    Posts
    12,160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    The largest denomination in Germany is Catholic. Meanwhile the UK, a Protestant country, has not been 'fiscally prudent' any more than Ireland has (and has been saved by being able to float its own currency) and a quick browse of Private Eye any week will tell you all you need to know about corruption and clientilism in British politics.
    Yes the largest denomination in Germany is Catholic, so also with Nederlands. That economic utopia the UK was bankrupt in the mid 70's and had to be rescued by the IMF.
    Last edited by PO'Neill; 14th February 2013 at 04:29 PM.
    Follow the money in this country and it ALWAYS goes back to state support, be it tax breaks, state contracts and the manipulation of markets for the gombeen class.

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member Toland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Foreign, for my mental as well as material well-being
    Posts
    63,336
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FloatingVoterTralee View Post
    The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
    Dunno about in orthodoxy (I'd imagine they're the same), but in RC countries the space reserved in progressive developed countried by liberal public ethics is occupied by a weird, sexually obsessed and fundamentally makey-uppey "Catholic morality".

    To explain it on a level of individual psychology, people spend their mental effort concentrating on feeling guilty about the wrong things.
    Last edited by Toland; 14th February 2013 at 04:31 PM.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •