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Thread: What Sort of Europe Should We Aspire to?

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    Politics.ie Member ruserious's Avatar
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    Default What Sort of Europe Should We Aspire to?

    The European Coal and Steel Community of 1951 and the European Economic Community of 1958 brought peace to Europe. War between the great powers has been described as 'unthinkable'. This is a fantastic legacy to leave behind and very few associate it with any negativity.

    The single market under the European Economic Area has allowed Irish exporters to excell and offers the Irish economy a huge potential marketplace. This is a huge benefit to Irish and European business and to citizens.

    However, I do not like the idea of a 'political union'. I do not want to be part of the United States of Europe as I do not see how it can benefit us anymore than the EEA already does. I like being Irish. Yes, we are European too, but I like having the chance to offer political allegiance to our small state, and not a pan-European conglomerate.

    Coming through the State's education curriculum in the noughties, it was often imposed on us how the EU was the be all and end all. But these last few years, we have seen how the EU treats citizens of particular countries. There is a sense of bitterness amongst the youth. Prior to the 2008-present crisis, Ireland was one of the most pro-europe countries in the EU, but today, there is a general sense of anger at the EU fueled no doubt by an Irish government eager to find a scape goat while she introduces tough budgets.

    I think we need a debate on where the EU is going. This crisis signals a general push towards creating an ever closer union. A cynic might conclude that certain economic elements were fostered to achieve this end-goal.

    The drive to assign Westphalia to the dustbin in waves of globalisation has also seen the resurrection of regionalism such as in Catalonia, Scotland and South Tyrol. Could this endanger the future of a USE?

    To sum up, I approve of some sort of economic agreements and free movement of people. I also think there could be an European agreement to share embassey's abroad. But I am against the idea of a USE for arguments outlined.

    Please outline your preferred vision for the future in Europe and let's try be civil.

    Rus.
    Boycott the "Irish" Sun rag.

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    there should be simply a "free trade area" where business/trade can flourish without tariff or political/national favour.the Brussels or strabourg elites should be dismantled.

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    Politics.ie Member Lempo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patfitzbally View Post
    the Brussels or strabourg elites should be dismantled.
    By chains and horses.

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    Politics.ie Member Shqiptar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lempo View Post
    By chains and horses.


    Lempo! Jeez.....move away from Tarantino DVDs!
    Eagla agus eaglais: an bhfuil an fhréamh teangeolaíochta céanna acu?

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    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
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    Let's ask the Greeks.

    I reckon they have far more relevant comments to make that fat plutocrats like Suds and Donkeylaffs.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Politics.ie Member ruserious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patfitzbally View Post
    there should be simply a "free trade area" where business/trade can flourish without tariff or political/national favour.the Brussels or strabourg elites should be dismantled.
    Would you not include services so by definition of your reply?
    Boycott the "Irish" Sun rag.

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    Politics.ie Member Shqiptar's Avatar
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    There's too much emphasis on political and economic union. Europe is a cultural construct and that's what we should have focused on. We should celebrate Europeanness and gradually grow together that way - if that's what happens.

    More power should reside at the national level and every country should vote on whether or not any power is surrendered upwards. It should be flexible. If some country opts out of a particular initiative, it should be no big deal. The initiative should be designed specifically to allow that.
    Eagla agus eaglais: an bhfuil an fhréamh teangeolaíochta céanna acu?

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    Politics.ie Member Lempo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqiptar View Post


    Lempo! Jeez.....move away from Tarantino DVDs!
    If I sees an open net, I puts it in.

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    I struggled with my views on European integration for years, culminating with a focus in my university education.

    I went from anti-integration for nationalist reasons, to a kind of euro nationalist (what I thought was federalist at the time), to intergovernmentalist (ie generally similar to ruserious), before finally settling at what I consider actual federalism.

    The first thing I would say that calling a potential federal European Union a 'United States of Europe' is not helpful; it implies certain things about American political structures and American power which would be unlikely to apply or be relevant in this context.

    The pure and simple reason I am a Federalist is for the sake of democracy. Like it or not, a certain amount of international economic and political integration is inevitable (precisely how much or in what form, well, a long debate). The economic and political forces pushing and pulling integration aren't going to just go away because they don't fit with the ideology of nationalism used to legitimize the old order.

    When power is transferred to a supranational level, without reflective change in our democracy, then real democracy declines. Member State Governments have a self interest in good governance in order to be elected, so though they might not like giving up powers they will do so when they believe it is necessary for good governance. However, it is not in the self interest of those Governments for the supranational institutions to be directly elected, as that would challenge their dominance as the legitimate carriers of the democratic torch. Hence the intergovernmental institutions of the Union are largely bureaucratic in nature.

    Furthermore, the presumption of intergovernmental governance can be problematic, as the pursuit of monetary union without fiscal union has shown.

    A federal union means a democratic union and a better governed union.

    I would like us to somewhat move past our close association of national identity with political jurisdiction, it is not the historical absolute that it is often portrayed. I would like political institutions to be to a certain extent 'culturally secular,' with national cultural concerns the remit of apolitical institutions. Our political focus should be pure and simply be on liberal democratic good governance, at say a local, regional and continental level.

    Essentially I believe we should build our democratic institutions to reflect the realities of where decision making would be most effective. The presumption should be for governance to be as local as possible, but that should not prevent decisions being made at the level that gives the best results, and that decision making should be democratic.

    I've written much, much longer posts on this in the past that I can direct anyone to if they so wish.
    Last edited by wilting; 4th February 2013 at 12:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    Let's ask the Greeks.

    I reckon they have far more relevant comments to make that fat plutocrats like Suds and Donkeylaffs.
    The names you've given politicians are so unrelated to them that I really don't know who you're talking about.
    Racism = fear, low self-esteem and breath-taking ignorance.

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