Follow @PoliticsIE
 
 
 
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 44

Thread: Was the Irish revolution/rebellion from 1916 extremely conservative?

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    11,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default Was the Irish revolution/rebellion from 1916 extremely conservative?

    When looking at the changes in structure of Irish politics and society from before the Irish revolution/rebellion to after it, I notice how very little of the power structure changed and the radical beliefs and policies proposed by many of the rebels didn't come into being when the Free State was in its infancy and even beyond.

    The Democratic Programme of the First Dail put in place a vision which was generally socialist in belief, i.e.
    ''the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland'',
    ''to secure that no child shall suffer hunger or cold from lack of food, clothing, or shelter'',
    ''It shall be our duty to promote the development of the Nation's resources... in the interests and for the benefit of the Irish people''.
    The rhetoric-laden Programme turned out to be just that- rhetoric.
    An insight into the thinking of some of the prominent Irish politicians of the day can be seen in W T Cosgrave's private remarks in 1921. Cosgrave was SF's Minister for Local Government at the time.

    People reared in workhouses, as you are aware, are no great acquisition to the community and they have no ideas whatsoever of civic responsibilities. As a rule their highest aim is to live at the expense of the ratepayers. Consequently, it would be a decided gain if they all took it into their heads to emigrate.
    This kind of thinking shows how some members of the government viewed those on the edge of society, trying to survive; more of a burden than of a problem which needed addressing immediately. This mindset is in stark contrast to the Programme of 1919, with its wish in-

    abolishing the present odious, degrading and foreign Poor Law System, substituting therefor a sympathetic native scheme for the care of the Nation's aged and infirm, who shall not be regarded as a burden, but rather entitled to the Nation's gratitude and consideration
    The centralised control of the Irish government proceeding the revolution/rebellion brings forward the question of whether the newly elected politicians really wanted to give Irish citizens the right ''to the unfettered control of Irish destinies'' or was it just about getting into power and holding onto power?
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member ruserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    In the Bunker...Returning Fire!
    Posts
    29,259
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)

    Default

    ''the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland'',
    ''to secure that no child shall suffer hunger or cold from lack of food, clothing, or shelter'',
    ''It shall be our duty to promote the development of the Nation's resources... in the interests and for the benefit of the Irish people''.
    That's not socialist. It's called being a good person.
    Boycott the "Irish" Sun rag.

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    11,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
    That's not socialist. It's called being a good person.
    ''The right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland''

    ''It shall be the duty of the Republic to adopt all measures necessary for the recreation and invigoration of our Industries, and to ensure their being developed on the most beneficial and progressive co-operative and industrial lines.''

    ''It shall also devolve upon the National Government to seek co-operation of the Governments of other countries in determining a standard of Social and Industrial Legislation with a view to a general and lasting improvement in the conditions under which the working classes live and labour.''
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member truthisfree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Midlands
    Posts
    5,550
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    People reared in workhouses, as you are aware, are no great acquisition to the community and they have no ideas whatsoever of civic responsibilities. As a rule their highest aim is to live at the expense of the ratepayers. Consequently, it would be a decided gain if they all took it into their heads to emigrate.
    This attitude has not changed one bit....

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Member james5001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    11,482
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by truthisfree View Post
    This attitude has not changed one bit....
    “we shouldn’t be defeatist or pessimistic about it. We should be proud of it. After all, we can’t all live on a small island.”
    Brian Lenihan, Tanaiste, 1987, quoted as saying this in Newsweek.
    The world is a very puzzling place. If you're not willing to be puzzled, you just become a replica of someone else's mind.

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Member oggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    8,955
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Heading rapidly to old age and have yet to meet a human being who wasnt born a conservative . Humans have the habit of conserving what is right and of value and nervous of change.
    Have yet to meet a natural born liberal, any people I have met with liberalism tended to be conservatives with a brain
    People demonise Fianna Fail and they are entitled to do so but same people are not capable of answering a few awkward questions themselves.

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Member Heligoland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,334
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    There was a counter revolution. It's not taught about in schools, but it happened.


  8. #8
    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern Ireland - without forgiveness, there is dysfunctionality.
    Posts
    46,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Sovereignty lasted until the Treaty of Maastricht.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Member The Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Plain of the Yew Trees
    Posts
    2,966
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I think it is genuinely hard to try and place ourselves in the Ireland, the world in fact that existed back then. Obviously, like all politicians, the shower were trying to please various factions and needed to ensure that (a) the ordinary people would stand with them but more importantly (b) that those with money, power and status both here and abroad would note that this new Irish Government would use what funds were made available to them to promote the markets and build an economy that would benefit the rich which would make them more inclined to invest, hence the disgusting (nowadays) remark about those unfortunates in work-houses. Probably the equivilant of those posters here who attack those on social welfare and talk of them as if they were of no moment. Putting on display their stall, so to speak.

    I know from my own grandparents and mother that life was bloody hard for a very long time for the ordinary people. Alfie Byrne promising "running water on each landing" for the tenaments in Dublin. Even the huge undertaking of building Corporation Houses in the early 1930s in the suburbs of Dublin, like Crumlin, was an eye-opener for me. A bath in the kitchen. The toilet outside the back door off the kitchen in a porch and no electricity running into that room where the toilet was, so no light. But why would one need light when one brought a bucket up to the landing every night. These houses were mansions to the people who moved out of the tenaments into "the country" as they used to say

    So looking at documents or films from the far past is foreign to us, and strange. The only thing we would recognise are the politicians. A special breed they are. Neither socialist or conservative but rather whatever fits their backers and their own pockets, of course.
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results: I present, The Irish politcal system: Thank you Einstein

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member Analyzer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern Ireland - without forgiveness, there is dysfunctionality.
    Posts
    46,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    We are enthusiastic socialists now.

    The state owns the banks. The state amounts to more than half national income, even though it produces no products, and a lot of dodgy services.

    And then we have socialism for gamblers holding Seanie Bonds.

    We also had a very liberal approach to finance in the past twenty years. Both at a micro level, and at a macro level.

    Whatever about 1916, we are definitely something different now.

    We had ambition, humility, an eagerness for action, and a directness when we went working on achieving our freedom.

    That seems to have morphed into a silliness, pretensciousness, arrogance, narcisism, intellectual laziness, and a willingness to follow compromised media influence, in the 1990s.
    Last edited by Analyzer; 14th January 2013 at 02:26 AM.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •