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Thread: Taxes as a percentage of GNP. Is 22% really all that high?

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    Default Taxes as a percentage of GNP. Is 22% really all that high?

    Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

    We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GDP (sorry, the thread title needs to be fixed, it's not GNP), is €163.5bn. Source for Irish GDP is the UN, World Bank, IMF and the CIA, by means of wikipedia. They give GDP as between USD$217bn and 221bn.

    So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%. (If we're talking about one guesstimate of GNP at €130bn, then that figure rises to a scarcely-whopping 27%)

    Is 22% really a hard limit?

    Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

    That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

    Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

    This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
    Last edited by feargach; 4th January 2013 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Corrected GNP to GDP, thanks for pointing it out
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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

    We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

    So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

    Is 22% really a hard limit?

    Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

    That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

    Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

    This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
    If tax is only 22% of GNP then the economy should be booming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

    We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

    So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

    Is 22% really a hard limit?

    GNP is more like €130 billion, from here:
    http://cso.ie/en/media/csoie/release...qna_q32012.pdf

    Then, the entirety of taxes levied on households in Ireland is closer to €55 billion, from here:
    12. Government deficit/surplus, revenue, expenditure and main aggregates


    So €36 billion of €163.5 billion should be more like €55 billion of €130 billion, which is more like 42% of GNP


    Do you want to redraft your OP?


    If I answer the question, is 42% a hard limit? I would probably answer there is no hard limit but that looks awefully high to me and an obstacle to incentivising people to create income and it deprives them of the resources needed to do so.

    THen of course you need to factor into the equation the fact that less than 50% of the population pay that 42%. In fact probably 10% pay virtually all of it. So their burden is a lot more than 42% and any increase would almost certainly fall on them again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainwreck View Post
    GNP is more like €130 billion, from here:
    http://cso.ie/en/media/csoie/release...qna_q32012.pdf

    Then, the entirety of taxes levied on households in Ireland is closer to €55 billion, from here:
    12. Government deficit/surplus, revenue, expenditure and main aggregates


    So €36 billion of €163.5 billion should be more like €55 billion of €130 billion, which is more like 42% of GNP


    Do you want to redraft your OP?
    Is Irish taxation too high ?

    Ask the retail businesses that are boarding up shop front windows in Main Streets up and down the country !!!!
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    Is Irish taxation too high ?

    Ask the retail businesses that are boarding up shop front windows in Main Streets up and down the country !!!!
    That's more to do with council and landlord greed, overleveraging and in some cases serious miscalculations and stupidity.
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." Ernest Hemingway

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    Quote Originally Posted by sic transit View Post
    That's more to do with council and landlord greed, overleveraging and in some cases serious miscalculations and stupidity.
    I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

    The landlords provide something of use - a facility.

    The Local Auhority provides junkets for councillors and an awful lot of nepotism and cronyism. And maybe even fees for somebody doing their Masters Degree.

    Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on members of the public who come to the shop. The cost of the local authority rates is unemployment in the retail sector.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

    The landlords provide something of use - a facility.

    The Local Auhority provides junkets for councillors and an awful lot of nepotism and cronyism. And maybe even fees for somebody doing their Masters Degree.

    Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on everybody who buys in the shop.
    We had too many shops in the boom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
    I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

    Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on everybody who buys in the shop.
    I am not disputing that but you can't lump all the blame for business failures on taxation. Overleveraging and poor business decisions are much more to blame.
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." Ernest Hemingway

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    Quote Originally Posted by sic transit View Post
    I am not disputing that but you can't lump all the blame for business failures on taxation. Overleveraging is much more of a killer.
    I think the is saying the burden is currently high and the burden is very concentrated.

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    Many successful retail businesses over borrowed for property investment and sank the whole ship

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