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Thread: Jimmy Carr's tax avoidance scheme - how widespread are its Irish counterparts for our plutocrats?

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    Default Jimmy Carr's tax avoidance scheme - how widespread are its Irish counterparts for our plutocrats?

    Jimmy Carr, Hiberno-English comedian, only has to pay a penny in the pound or so in income taxes, despite being a member of the global elite of very wealthy individuals. And despite the fact that the market for his product is almost entirely concentrated in the UK and Ireland.

    The scheme is fairly simple to understand: all the money he gets for his comedy apparently goes to a Jersey company, which then loans him money. It's classed as a business loan and thus exempt from many taxes.

    A quick look at wikipedia confirms what most people would have guessed: there is no precise, agreed-upon definition of income. The wikipedia article itself mentions three different schools of thought on how to define income from the point of view of academic economics. It also mentions a separate definition from the International Accounting Standards Board. It does not state whether the tax authorities of Ireland or the UK have their own variation of the concept. Income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quite apart from expert definitions, I suspect that most of us would not consider Jimmy Carr's money to be anything other than income, even if it is classed as something else according to tax regulations.

    So clearly, if you're honest, talk about "income" should really be very clearly marked as to what definition you're using, and if you don't specify a definition, then the "common usage" definition should suffice.

    Constantin Gurdgiev writes in the latest Village:

    "the top 23% of income earners (defined as those on incomes in excess of €50,001 per annum) had a combined income of €46.1bn, accounting for 55.8% of the total income in the nation". 46.1bn divided by 55.8 is 826 million, implying that total income would be €82.6 billion in 2011.

    Problem: GNP is given as US$221bn in 2011. I'm using $1 = €0.74 as my yardstick for a rough calculation of the exchange rate. That still gives you a GNP level of €163.5bn.

    So whatever it is that Constantin Gurdgiev means by "income", and there are at least three different definitions to choose from, it appears to exclude almost half of GNP!

    Of course, not all proximate economic actors are physical people. Some are sovereign governments. Some are fictional persons, usually called companies by you and me. All companies are owned, ultimately, by physical people, though.

    So what the blue fsck is going on with the €80bn of GNP that Constantin Gurdgiev does not label as "income"?

    Wikipedia again: "GNP is the total value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a particular year, plus income earned by its citizens (including income of those located abroad), minus income of non-residents located in that country."

    I strongly suspect that a lot of that €80bn is, in fact, what you and I would call income/wealth/sponds/moolah/dosh/bucks. I also VERY strongly suspect that no more than 20% of that €80bn of GNP that does not get counted as income is under the effective de facto ownership or control of the bottom 50% of Irish individuals.

    In what context was Constantin Gurdgiev talking about total income being half of GNP?

    You've guessed it: to bolster his argument that we can't tax the rich any more than we currently do.
    Last edited by feargach; 30th December 2012 at 04:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    Jimmy Carr, Hiberno-English comedian, only has to pay a penny in the pound or so in income taxes, despite being a member of the global elite. And despite the fact that the market for his product is almost entirely concentrated in the UK and Ireland.
    You are an even bigger joker than Jimmy Carr !!!
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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    How many jimmy Carrs have we in Ireland ???????

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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    Jimmy Carr, Hiberno-English comedian, only has to pay a penny in the pound or so in income taxes, despite being a member of the global elite. And despite the fact that the market for his product is almost entirely concentrated in the UK and Ireland.

    The scheme is fairly simple to understand: all the money he gets for his comedy apparently goes to a Jersey company, which then loans him money. It's classed as a business loan and thus exempt from many taxes.

    A quick look at wikipedia confirms what most people would have guessed: there is no precise, agreed-upon definition of income. The wikipedia article itself mentions three different schools of thought on how to define income from the point of view of academic economics. It also mentions a separate definition from the International Accounting Standards Board. It does not state whether the tax authorities of Ireland or the UK have their own variation of the concept. Income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quite apart from expert definitions, I suspect that most of us would not consider Jimmy Carr's money to be anything other than income, even if it is classed as something else according to tax regulations.

    So clearly, if you're honest, talk about "income" should really be very clearly marked as to what definition you're using, and if you don't specify a definition, then the "common usage" definition should suffice.

    Constantin Gurdgiev writes in the latest Village:

    "the top 23% of income earners (defined as those on incomes in excess of €50,001 per annum) had a combined income of €46.1bn, accounting for 55.8% of the total income in the nation". 46.1bn divided by 55.8 is 826 million, implying that total income would be €82.6 billion in 2011.

    Problem: GNP is given as US$221bn in 2011. I'm using $1 = €0.74 as my yardstick for a rough calculation of the exchange rate. That still gives you a GNP level of €163.5bn.

    So whatever it is that Constantin Gurdgiev means by "income", and there are at least three different definitions to choose from, it appears to exclude almost half of GNP!

    Of course, not all proximate economic actors are physical people. Some are sovereign governments. Some are fictional persons, usually called companies by you and me. All companies are owned, ultimately, by physical people, though.

    So what the blue fsck is going on with the €80bn of GNP that Constantin Gurdgiev does not label as "income"?

    Wikipedia again: "GNP is the total value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a particular year, plus income earned by its citizens (including income of those located abroad), minus income of non-residents located in that country."

    I strongly suspect that a lot of that €80bn is, in fact, what you and I would call income/wealth/sponds/moolah/dosh/bucks. I also VERY strongly suspect that no more than 20% of that €80bn of GNP that does not get counted as income is under the effective de facto ownership or control of the bottom 50% of Irish individuals.

    In what context was Constantin Gurdgiev talking about total income being half of GNP?

    You've guessed it: to bolster his argument that we can't tax the rich any more than we currently do.
    Feargach,why do you foam at the mouth with envy of your social betters? This could lead to heart attacks and strokes!

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    Politics.ie Member neiphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Feargach,why do you foam at the mouth with envy of your social betters? This could lead to heart attacks and strokes!
    are you for real ?
    "If we VOTE YES there will be no more austere budgets. Fact " Hammer, mayday 12'

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Feargach,why do you foam at the mouth with envy of your social betters? This could lead to heart attacks and strokes!
    Social betters?
    Oh Jesus you really are pat slattery- Internet management consultant extraordinaire!

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Onx5p6Z9lFk
    http://http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Onx5p6Z9lFk

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    Politics.ie Member dresden8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiphin View Post
    are you for real ?
    I'm afraid so. patslatt loves to kiss rich people's arses.

    Protect the rich, attack the working poor is his motto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dresden8 View Post
    I'm afraid so. patslatt loves to kiss rich people's arses.

    Protect the rich, attack the working poor is his motto.

    Agreed. The working poor have no voice and thats why they are targeted again and again.

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    Getting on to the substantial point of the OP. This board is full of people who claim to have a working knowledge of economics. So how come there's not a word about the following question:

    How can the "total income" of a nation be only half of it's GNP?

    Every penny spent by every person or non-human entity is, by definition, a penny of income for a different person or non-human entity.

    Yes, Ireland is a very open economy, but not THAT open.

    Even in Germany, the most successful exporting nation on Earth, fully two-thirds of economic activity occurs within its own borders.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Feargach,why do you foam at the mouth with envy of your social betters? This could lead to heart attacks and strokes!
    If one of these betters could explain how GNP can be over €160bn while total income is less than €85bn, I'd be satisfied.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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