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Thread: Huge international mismatch between job vacancies and skills of unemployed-same in Ireland?

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    Default Huge international mismatch between job vacancies and skills of unemployed-same in Ireland?

    See Schumpeter: The great mismatch | The Economist

    Despite youth unemployment of 75 million globally,more than a third of employers have trouble filling jobs. Educators aren't paying enough attention to employers' requirements. A major problem is that vocational education is neglected in favour of universities.

    Vocational programmes are emphasised in some countries. Korea has a network of vocational schools,catering to such trades as machine operators and plumbers. Ireland used to have successful "Tech schools" for trades,whose mission may have been lost in Institutes of Technology.

    Technical schools are building exact replicas of workplaces for training,for example a gas plant without the gas in Australia. Sweden's technical schools replicated construction sites for decades.

    Information on the job placement record of past graduates should concentrate the minds of educators. In the US, Columbia's Labour Observatory provides such details on every educational institution. Irish universities are supposed to start providing similar information on their graduates.

    FAS probably contributed to the mismatch of training to jobs in Ireland. It was still promoting construction jobs training when the Celtic Tiger building boom was bust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    See Schumpeter: The great mismatch | The Economist

    Despite youth unemployment of 75 million globally,more than a third of employers have trouble filling jobs. Educators aren't paying enough attention to employers' requirements. A major problem is that vocational education is neglected in favour of universities.

    Vocational programmes are emphasised in some countries. Korea has a network of vocational schools,catering to such trades as machine operators and plumbers. Ireland used to have successful "Tech schools" for trades,whose mission may have been lost in Institutes of Technology.

    Technical schools are building exact replicas of workplaces for training,for example a gas plant without the gas in Australia. Sweden's technical schools replicated construction sites for decades.

    Information on the job placement record of past graduates should concentrate the minds of educators. In the US, Columbia's Labour Observatory provides such details on every educational institution. Irish universities are supposed to start providing similar information on their graduates.

    FAS probably contributed to the mismatch of training to jobs in Ireland. It was still promoting construction jobs training when the Celtic Tiger building boom was bust.

    1) IT’s or the old RTC’s were not responsible for trades. FAS was and is...
    2) We have a huge oversupply of trades and machine-operators.
    3) FAS actually makes a pretty decent job of its trades training and as a result Irish trade qualifications are recognised in most countries around the world (after a short conversion course to understand local regulations).

    Ireland should be proud of its history of vocational training and worried that its disappearing. The old RTC's were actually pretty good at what they did and filled a market, they appear to have forgotten that in their rush to become universities...

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    Politics.ie Member Jack White's Avatar
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    It doesn't help that there is absolutely no respect for young men in this society.

    Demonstrably, the colleges of FE are more interested in devoting their energies on Creative Writing, Pilates, Gel Nails, and various elements of Angels In Your Life.

    Tough luck if you want to try your hand at CNC machining.

    Nor is there a lot of respect for manufacturing. We must all in the west now be providers of services, and not actually make useful things. James Dyson some years ago had some interesting things to say about the consequences for us all in shunning productive enterprise.

    As for the trades as they stand, and I can only speak for the electrical side - an interesting case anyway, since it has been largely construction driven but has so many more applications than eg carpentry or bricklaying.

    As I see it, the current (ha) formal elements of training that FAS is responsible for (ie the ''off the job'' phases), are largely silly, and laughably esoteric in mant respects.

    They are not vocational, really. In my opinion those classroom parts of the apprenticeship are really there to lure the brighter sparks (ha) onto the degree courses, where they can jump straight into the second year.

    So from that point I agree with you re

    A major problem is that vocational education is neglected in favour of universities.
    Of course, you can take modules of those degree courses and broaden the knowledge base that way.

    But even if you take all the modules in the world, you still don't have what employers really want, which is practical, proven experience.

    There are just no jobs Pat.

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey321 View Post

    Ireland should be proud of its history of vocational training and worried that its disappearing. The old RTC's were actually pretty good at what they did and filled a market, they appear to have forgotten that in their rush to become universities...
    I have a relative who's quite senior in an Australian training college, despite being a tradesman. He met up with the leaders of his old Training college in Dublin and formed the opinion that academic credentials have displaced hands on industrial experience in the Irish setup - as he said, fine for the teaching staff but not so fine for meeting employers needs. My own experience of the IT degrees are that they neglect basic theory for the sake of whatever happens to be trendy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack White View Post

    As I see it, the current (ha) formal elements of training that FAS is responsible for (ie the ''off the job'' phases), are largely silly, and laughably esoteric in mant respects.

    They are not vocational, really. In my opinion those classroom parts of the apprenticeship are really there to lure the brighter sparks (ha) onto the degree courses, where they can jump straight into the second year.

    So from that point I agree with you re


    Of course, you can take modules of those degree courses and broaden the knowledge base that way.

    But even if you take all the modules in the world, you still don't have what employers really want, which is practical, proven experience.
    I disagree.

    I went through the electrical apprenticeship (later in life) and was one of the first batch to go though the new scheme.

    It was very difficult with very high failure rates, the unions balked so they reviewed it and made it easier. By the time I did my last release it was pretty much the same stuff we did in the first release but failure rates were lower.

    Its already been dumbed down to much I think and the only benefit was nto to encourage guys to do engineering. It opened up allot of options to me.

    The thing that most people forget is that not all electricians work (or worked) in construction. I never did and never had any interest in doing so. I spent my apprenticeship working on robotics, automated production lines, PLC's, some high voltage stuff but mainly low voltage. I worked on everything from a small ultrasonic cleaning tank to a multimillion Euro robotic line. We worked with machine builders. project engineers (hell we did allot of project engineering ourselves) machine rebuilds, retrofits, wireless comms, telecoms, fibre and copper comms circuits. it was great and the more theory I had exposure to the more I understood and the more options I had. I was lucky to work with some great minds who wanted to and were willing to teach including engineers, other electricians, business people. I also as lucky enough to work for a company that encouraged me to study any area I wanted and provided support (money to pay for the courses) to do so. It was quite literally the best 4 years of my life and the best educational experience I ever had...

    I was genuinely disappointed at the low level of theory being taught at the later release stages.

    I had a long argument with Fas at the time that they should have split the electrical trade in two, those who were only interested in domestic and industrial wiring and those that were into automation etc. It was a lost opportunity.

    When I qualified I had numerous job offers, my experience was great and companies were falling all over themselves to hire me and my colleagues. Since then I have worked as a service engineer, project engineer, service manager, engineering manager, technical sales, in a variety of industries and sectors, (I not work in microbiology) and I credit allot of my career to my apprenticeship, it taught my how to think, how to find out information and most importantly how to apply it.

    Donít go and dumb it down...

    The company I trained with no longer hires apprentices as they couldn't get the type of people they wanted anymore and started hiring graduates. I suspect that will change again as the experience with graduates has been poor, they take 4 or more years to bring up to the level they require and tend not to like the hands on element.. The last conversation I had with the engineering manager there was that they were looking to recruit apprentices again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    I have a relative who's quite senior in an Australian training college, despite being a tradesman. He met up with the leaders of his old Training college in Dublin and formed the opinion that academic credentials have displaced hands on industrial experience in the Irish setup - as he said, fine for the teaching staff but not so fine for meeting employers needs. My own experience of the IT degrees are that they neglect basic theory for the sake of whatever happens to be trendy.
    I agree the IT have lost the best parts of the old RTC's.

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    Huge amount of funds spent on education but not in a targeted sensible way. We dont need more law students but we do need computer graduates. Why not provide a free third level education for specific areas and if a student wants to study law fine arts etc they can pay for it themselves.

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    Politics.ie Member Crazy horse 6's Avatar
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    The government here would rather we send people into tesco packing shelves under the guise of jobbridge than actually tackle the jobs crisis. 5 years in now and we stand still with our hands in our pockets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy horse 6 View Post
    The government here would rather we send people into tesco packing shelves under the guise of jobbridge than actually tackle the jobs crisis. 5 years in now and we stand still with our hands in our pockets.
    Quite so (except the Tesco bit).

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    FAS I have found to be pretty much a waste of time. Having done a course which was 3-5 years out of date in places I looked around to see if there were other areas to re-skill in and found nothing that was worthwhile or didn't require me to travel to the other end of the country. Basic engineering orientated skills that have a value such as panel beating/spraying, vehicle electronics or even learning to operate a lathe, all go unaddressed by them and they were still majoring in stick rather than MIG welding up to a couple of years ago!

    With all this oil supposedly sloshing around beneath Irish shores how are we going to meet the need for skilled labour to extract it and at least benefit in some small way from its value if we don't start training people now?

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