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Thread: Is high €19 billion public sector pay bill, 15% of national income, reducing government services and dragging down the economy?

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    Default Is high €19 billion public sector pay bill, 15% of national income, reducing government services and dragging down the economy?

    Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

    In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

    The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
    -There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
    -In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
    -Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.

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    Politics.ie Member The Herren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

    In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

    The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
    -There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
    -In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
    -Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.
    I would like to comment but the last time I did the Site Police deleted my thread so I won't tempt fate.
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    Politics.ie Member cabledude's Avatar
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    Obviously. But that's not the only issue.Quangos and bank bailouts are also pulling down our economy. But your O.P. is correct. But this isa situation that will not change. The Government are committed to Croke Park with every bone in their body, so on we go
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    Politics.ie Member Baztard's Avatar
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    As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!

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    Politics.ie Member ManOfReason's Avatar
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    Nothing will change. Government employees and other special interests vote while the broke and disillusioned individuals emigrate. We have already reached the point where this sort of logic has bankrupt the country but since we know no other way we plough on regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baztard View Post
    As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
    The logic is that we can spend ourselves rich by increasing public sector pay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabledude View Post
    Obviously. But that's not the only issue.Quangos and bank bailouts are also pulling down our economy. But your O.P. is correct. But this isa situation that will not change. The Government are committed to Croke Park with every bone in their body, so on we go
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baztard View Post
    As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
    Lining the pockets of the private sector?

    How much VAT do you pay on things?
    How much VRT/VAT do you pay if you buy a new car?
    How much will you pay in a property tax? Thats after you've paid yout income tax/usc/prsi/pension levy.
    Your not exactly 'lining the pockets' of the private sector are you?, a lot of our money goes back to the government in indirect taxation so you can get paid 50% more than the private sector again next week.

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    The pay is too high because the PS run the real risk of being made unemployed at a moments notice.

    Begrudgers in the private sector have no appreciation of that, some of whom can enjoy the luxury and stability of rolling monthly or weekly contracts.
    Fianna Fail - The Anti Democratic Party & The Anti Constitutional Party. Traitors of Irishmen and Irishwomen.

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    Politics.ie Member firefly123's Avatar
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    Jaysus pat. Why do you persist with this lie about 50%? Is it the Davy report that when slightly examined compared hairdressers to guards or is it the CSO report that tells you in the report not to compare literally as its not supposed to be read that way?
    You have been shown on numerous occasions why you are wrong on this yet you continue to persist with it. I can only assume you either have a head injury or you are outright lying and looking to fool those who don't know your track record here.
    You post could be correct. The rest of what you say might even have some merit but you preface it with an outright lie and it ruins any point your trying to make. I know you'll either say something asinine like 'ya! Boo! Troll!' or 'statistical purity' or you will scuttle off, dodge my point and then start a new thread on this in a few hours/days.
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