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Thread: British military involvement in the Irish Civil War

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    Default British military involvement in the Irish Civil War

    In light of the recent publicity around the memoir that a British howitzer team bombarded the Four Courts;

    Memoir suggests British army at opening shots of Civil War - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 30, 2012

    This is an article on the role British forces played in the civil war.

    British Military Involvement in the Irish Civil War | The Irish Story

    In concludes 'it would have humiliated the Empire to grant an independent Irish republic and to admit defeat. Given the military aid, direct and indirect that the British were prepared to give, the Irish Civil War could only have ended one way'

    But also that, 'many pro-Treatyites, allegedly those who were doing Britainís bidding, did not see what they were doing in the same light as their British allies at all.'

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    Politics.ie Member McTell's Avatar
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    Inevitably, as the IRA had no artillery training. I'm surprised that anyone is surprised. You can fire a rifle after 15 minutes, but artillery needs maths and the hardware itself.

    Did we want a team of learners blowing up half the city before they hit the 4 courts?
    McTell tCurrently, I am missing certain information. That has been requested and will be added as soon as it is available available availableavailable

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    Politics.ie Member parentheses's Avatar
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    There was a recent article in I think the Irish Examiner or Evening Echo about the Civil War.

    It claimed that Michael Collin's sister was in Cork before the city was captured by the free State forces. She went around the city recruiting hundreds of former British army men. When the city fell to the free state these men were immediately put into free state uniform and formed the backbone of free state forces in the south

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    Politics.ie Member Schomberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    It claimed that Michael Collin's sister was in Cork before the city was captured by the free State forces. She went around the city recruiting hundreds of former British army men. When the city fell to the free state these men were immediately put into free state uniform and formed the backbone of free state forces in the south
    It's not uncommon in these situations for soldiers to form new armies. The Gardi were filled with DMP people in Dublin and ex RIC around the country. Anyway, a lot of the IRA were ex Forces, Tom Barry etc. None of them were capable of firing artillery?
    What have British in Ireland contributed to Ireland? Nothing of the scale that the Irish have contributed to Britain. - Runswithwind.

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    Politics.ie Member Picasso Republic's Avatar
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    Why is it suddenly a suprise to discover that the hardware loaned to the Irish Free State by the UK came with 'operators'.

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    Politics.ie Member Schomberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picasso Republic View Post
    Why is it suddenly a suprise to discover that the hardware loaned to the Irish Free State by the UK came with 'operators'.
    Why is it so hard to believe that with all these ex Forces people in the ranks of the IRA that none of them were capable of being operators? It all seems very "they joined up to put food on the table".
    What have British in Ireland contributed to Ireland? Nothing of the scale that the Irish have contributed to Britain. - Runswithwind.

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    Politics.ie Member edifice.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD66 View Post
    In light of the recent publicity around the memoir that a British howitzer team bombarded the Four Courts;

    Memoir suggests British army at opening shots of Civil War - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 30, 2012

    This is an article on the role British forces played in the civil war.

    British Military Involvement in the Irish Civil War | The Irish Story

    In concludes 'it would have humiliated the Empire to grant an independent Irish republic and to admit defeat. Given the military aid, direct and indirect that the British were prepared to give, the Irish Civil War could only have ended one way'

    But also that, 'many pro-Treatyites, allegedly those who were doing Britain’s bidding, did not see what they were doing in the same light as their British allies at all.'
    Good riposte here. Scroll down!
    All great truths begin as blasphemies!

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    Politics.ie Member Mitsui2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edifice. View Post
    Good riposte here. Scroll down!
    That appears to be pretty comprehensive all right, edifice. Thanks for the link.

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    SeamusNapoleon
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    Quote Originally Posted by edifice. View Post
    Good riposte here. Scroll down!
    From the article

    In fact, it was the shells and not the guns (Howitzers) that were called into question. The shells that were supplied were shrapnel shells unsuitable for use against heavy masonry. It was Emmet Dalton, one of the few Officers on the Pro Treaty side who knew how to fire the guns.
    Quote Originally Posted by SeamusNapoleon View Post
    I remember reading a fairly light book on Collins, but where [I'm nearly sure it was] Dalton stated that they were only provided with shrapnel shells as the British didn't trust them with anything else; hence his now-famous 'it was like hitting the building with peaches' comment.
    Giggidy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsui2 View Post
    That appears to be pretty comprehensive all right, edifice. Thanks for the link.
    It's not really. It doesn't prove or disprove that there were British gunners to know the background of the National Army teams on the 18 pounders. And something heavy opened those breaches in the walls.

    Regardless, the point this article was trying to make was that British military aid, both direct and indirect was central to the outcome of the civil war. Not whether that particular 60 pounder fired two shells at the Four Courts. In other words, though it irked many pro-Treaty republicans, they really were effectiely allies or even clients of the British as far as the military campaign of the civil war was concerned.
    Last edited by JohnD66; 26th November 2012 at 07:11 PM.

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