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View Poll Results: Based on the Expert Group's report, what steps on abortion legislation should the Irish govt pursue?

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  • No additional steps should be taken

    51 9.66%
  • Legislation

    413 78.22%
  • Guidelines only, no legislation

    64 12.12%
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Thread: Expert Group's Report on abortion leaked: legislate legislate legislate

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Member Sync's Avatar
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    Default Expert Group's Report on abortion leaked: legislate legislate legislate

    Expert group favours legislation for abortion - The Irish Times - Sun, Nov 25, 2012

    According to the Sunday Business Post, the expert group set up to deal with how the State deals with the issue of lawful abortions says legislation for the limited provision of abortion is required to make the State complaint with the European Court of Human Rights ruling in the ABC case.

    The report offers a number of options but legislation and regulations are the preferred choice. It says the Minister for Health should identify at which medical centres an abortion can take place.

    The report also calls for the establishment of an appeals process for women who have been refused an abortion to seek a review of the decision.
    There are 4 options

    1. Introduction of guidelines which do not require primary legislation, which isn't going to meet our commitments to Europe.

    2. Allow legal terminations of pregnancies where the life of the mother is at risk would be for the Minister for Health to administer regulations. This will still need legislation though and unlikely to make any MOH's life easier.

    3.Introduction of legislation alone. Puts things on a statutory, democraticly endorsed solution, but will take time to word and implement.

    4. Legislation plus regulations. Like the above only slightly easier to update.

    They're extremely negative on number 1.

    So it's good, and I'm sure Sean Ryan and his team have done a thorough job but.....didn't we know all this 3 years ago? Aren't successive governments just spinning their wheels looking to avoid drafting the clearly required legislation?

    We need to legislate on this. The EU are clear on it. The medical profession are clear on it. It needs to happen.

    The report is to be discussed on Tuesday, don't we need a clear message from the govt that the AG is going to be tasked with drafting this legislation?
    I'm living in America, and in America, you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business. Now f***ing pay me.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sync View Post
    We need to legislate on this. The EU are clear on it.
    None of the EU's business.

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Member Clanrickard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sync View Post
    Expert group favours legislation for abortion - The Irish Times - Sun, Nov 25, 2012
    There are 4 options
    1. Introduction of guidelines which do not require primary legislation, which isn't going to meet our commitments to Europe.

    2. Allow legal terminations of pregnancies where the life of the mother is at risk would be for the Minister for Health to administer regulations. This will still need legislation though and unlikely to make any MOH's life easier.

    3.Introduction of legislation alone. Puts things on a statutory, democraticly endorsed solution, but will take time to word and implement.

    4. Legislation plus regulations. Like the above only slightly easier to update.

    They're extremely negative on number 1.

    So it's good, and I'm sure Sean Ryan and his team have done a thorough job but.....didn't we know all this 3 years ago? Aren't successive governments just spinning their wheels looking to avoid drafting the clearly required legislation?

    We need to legislate on this. The EU are clear on it. The medical profession are clear on it. It needs to happen.

    The report is to be discussed on Tuesday, don't we need a clear message from the govt that the AG is going to be tasked with drafting this legislation?
    If (when?) they legislate the legislation needs to be so worded that it makes it possible for termination where the mother's life is at risk and not as in the UK where this can and is easily circumvented. They should go for it now as the longer they leave it the closer it will be to an election and the more likely it will be for pro-lifers to mobilise the troops.

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member LamportsEdge's Avatar
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    It is and has been the business of the people via referendum and the Supreme Court of the state though whatever you think of the EU.

    There is only one solution here and the state has been told over and over again. Legislate, produce the guidelines, and let those who object to abortion be told that they are not going to be forced to have one and that they can die from septicaemia if they so choose.
    Whenever understanding exists, accepting or rejecting is unnecessary. (Fundamentals of a Gnostic Education).

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Member Sync's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    None of the EU's business.
    Mmmmm, yes, not the EU, but the Council of Europe's. We're a member of that council and there's a binding finding that we've violated the convention on Human Rights by not having a procedure for defining qualification for a legal abortion. That's what's driving the entire push for legislation.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news...-human-rights/

    The court concluded today that neither the “medical consultation nor litigation options” relied on by the government constituted an effective or accessible procedure.

    “Moreover, there was no explanation why the existing constitution right had not been implemented to date,” the court ruled.

    While abortion remains a criminal offence under 1861 legislation, a technical constitutional right to abortion does exist in Ireland following a 1992 Supreme Court ruling. In a controversial judgment known as the “X case”, the court established the right of Irish women to an abortion if a pregnant woman’s life was at risk as a result of the pregnancy.
    I'm living in America, and in America, you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business. Now f***ing pay me.

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Member Ulster-Lad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LamportsEdge View Post
    It is and has been the business of the people via referendum and the Supreme Court of the state though whatever you think of the EU.

    There is only one solution here and the state has been told over and over again. Legislate, produce the guidelines, and let those who object to abortion be told that they are not going to be forced to have one and that they can die from septicaemia if they so choose.
    Loads of people die from septicaemia. Have you ever heard of MRSA. Ireland has the 4th highest rate in the EU.
    ‘The Great only appear great because we are on our knees: Let Us Rise!’ “ (James Larkin)

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Debater
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    None of the EU's business.
    I thought that it was the ECHR who were involved, not the EU.

  8. #8
    Politics.ie Member Red_93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    None of the EU's business.
    Is. One of the cases (on the giving of abortion information i think) was brought to the ECJ who said it was none of their business, but that is said to have been one of the most political decisions of the court ever, because they were worried we would leave Europe if they started liberalizing our abortion laws for us. And at the time Britain were getting very anti Europe and they didn't want that to spread to this island.
    Last edited by Red_93; 25th November 2012 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Getting called "dumb" for mixing up the ECJ and ECHR.

  9. #9
    simeongrimes
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    The big question is how to handle the threat of suicide. Both sides of the debate see this as possibly leading to abortion on demand. We can't second guess a pregnant woman who threatens to kill herself. Who would want to make that call. So logically we are going to have to face up to the fact of abortion on demand.

    It is unlikely that our abortion rate will increase. It will just happen here rather than in England. We will be able to work on getting the rate down which I'm sure everybody would like to see. But without coercion or judgmental attitudes.

    We want the best for Irish women do we not? Isn't that more important than carrying on with the pretence that out-sourcing abortion is the same as not having it.

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member gracethepirate's Avatar
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    No details about Savita's case?
    Brexit comes straight from hell. Everywhere it goes it causes disharmony, turbulence and misery. I think Brexiteers themselves must have some form of mental illness.

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