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Thread: Is ignorance/denial the main obstacle to addressing the economic crisis?

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    Politics.ie Member Disillusioned democrat's Avatar
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    Default Is ignorance/denial the main obstacle to addressing the economic crisis?

    One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

    There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
    1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
    2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do



    The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

    Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

    The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
    Last edited by Disillusioned democrat; 21st November 2012 at 02:23 PM.
    The more things change....

  2. #2

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    People don't care until things get really bad , they will listen to what politicians say .We know the politicians will scapegoat left right and center .The banks are a major problem , but so is the soveriegn vote buying debt which will just keep growing , most western welfare states are in the same boat .The political system of no term limits and career vote buying politicians is now showing itself to be very destructive .
    Quote Originally Posted by Disillusioned democrat View Post
    One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

    There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
    1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
    2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to direcrtly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do



    I the adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

    Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

    The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.

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    Don't get me started!


    Did you hear the Union gimp on Pat Kenny this morning claiming that we need a €3 Billion stimulous package?

    By the end of next year we will have had a five year, €100 Billion stimulus package, and nothing to show for it.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

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    Global Debt - $210 Trillion

    Global GDP - $60 Trillion

    That's 350% folks,

    Talk all ye want boys and girls, it doesn't matter,

    Ireland may not be Greece, but Earth fckn is,

    You're all living in a History Channel Special Edition Box Set,

    And nobody is coming to save ye, sorry,

    Buckle up

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    Politics.ie Member McTell's Avatar
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    "Too big to fail" met the "green jersey" and the "croke park agreement".
    McTell tCurrently, I am missing certain information. That has been requested and will be added as soon as it is available available availableavailable

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    Politics.ie Member Disillusioned democrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribeye View Post
    Global Debt - $210 Trillion

    Global GDP - $60 Trillion

    That's 350% folks,

    Talk all ye want boys and girls, it doesn't matter,

    Ireland may not be Greece, but Earth fckn is,

    You're all living in a History Channel Special Edition Box Set,

    And nobody is coming to save ye, sorry,

    Buckle up
    The concept of "global debt" is meaningless to some extent because it's all "our" debt and there will be a tipping point where the numbers become meaningless.

    What the numbers do say is that we, as a species, need to learn to be more content with slower, organic growth and market evolution in the future and essentially go back to the future. We will need to find a balance where more people buy what they need with cash - not credit and this will seriously limit growth.

    Governments will need to be real leaders here though, because the "golden" era of states being able to be both capitalist (for the rich) and socialist (for the vulnerable) simultaneously are, as you say, a thing of the past and very hard decisions and adjustments are required.

    Sadly in Ireland, our government appear to be completely oblivious to this reality and are betting the farm (or at least the tax payers farm) on a recovery so they can avoid making any decisions until they can retire.
    The more things change....

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    Politics.ie Member McTell's Avatar
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    Usually debt is matched with assets on the other side. The problem arose when the assets dropped in value and were shored up with new debt, but remained worth less than the new debt.

    NAMA was an attempt to remove x thousand properties from the market which would have sold for peanuts. You have to allow prices to reach rock bottom before they'll rise again.
    McTell tCurrently, I am missing certain information. That has been requested and will be added as soon as it is available available availableavailable

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    Politics.ie Member SeanieFitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disillusioned democrat View Post
    One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

    There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
    1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
    2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do



    The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

    Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

    The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
    You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

    You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

    You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

    IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

    well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!

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    Politics.ie Member daveL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disillusioned democrat View Post
    One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

    There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
    1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
    2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do



    The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

    Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

    The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
    no I don't think so

    an entrenched statist administration with delusions of grandeur and unsustainable senses of entitlement would be the biggest obstacles I see to addressing the economic crisis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanieFitz View Post
    You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

    You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

    You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

    IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

    well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!
    Em, IBEC & ISME are the largest welfare dependants in the country!

    I make no comment on INM & Newstalk, as I don't want the site to get sued for defamation

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