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Thread: Could this energy storage system be successfully deployed in Ireland?

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    Default Could this energy storage system be successfully deployed in Ireland?

    These people have "a highly reversible, gas cycle machine that works as both an engine and a heat pump": Our PHES Technology

    I'd like the views of only competent people, who have studied and have more than a passing knowledge of, engineering.

    Even if you are a 100% climate denier, you can still perceive the need for non-imported energy in a world of economic uncertainties such as this.

    The very survival of the Euro is in doubt. The smaller countries of the Eurozone could very easily find themselves being forced to undergo an overnight transition to a worthless currency with which it is impossible to obtain cheap oil.

    Therefore, it behooves them to find ways to be less dependent on their energy sources. Most countries, after all, strive to produce all of their vital medicines, their penicillin and aspirin, at home rather than depend on the international markets. Because there is a non-zero chance of an international market failure similar to 2008 endangering the arrival of medicines, countries have decided not to take a gamble for short-term price savings.

    It's a bit like the difference between a torch and the lights in your house. If you measure the hours of illumination, the extent of illumination, then the ESB is vastly more cost-effective than the torch. But you have the torch for those moments when for whatever reason, the ESB is unable to help you.

    Anyway, these guys have a very interesting system of electricity storage. I presume they have patented it, but patents run out eventually, or maybe their patent can be circumvented by using similar but not identical methods.

    So for those in the know: can this actually be done in Ireland for a reasonable cost?

    It basically takes an energy source, turns it into heat, then transfers that heat between two containers filled with gravel. It's been implemented and works great, it produces energy reliably whenever it's needed.
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    Politics.ie Member gracethepirate's Avatar
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    There definitely needs to be a change in energy supply. The ideal is to have individual houses producing their own energy (solar panels etc. but not wind power which is a waste of money). At the very least towns/suburbs should control their energy supply. None of us should be dependent on nationl energy companies, let alone multi-nationals, to supply our energy.

    New Scientist has an article on energy being produced from air, which is interesting because it would use carbon dioxide therefore would help reduce CO2 levels (which may lead to a global cooling problem...). However, it is not feasible yet.

    I haven't any information on the method you mention, but if it works and is easy to produce on a local level, imho it would perhaps end the need for multi-national supply.
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    feargach,

    Isentropic have a number of Irish investors and are building a demonstration project sized to support the grid at local distribution level.

    The problem for this company and for all other electricity storage companies is that modern electricity markets do not really have a market mechanism to allow storage to earn a living other than arbitrage.

    Electricity storage is a hot topic at the moment and as a global industry is projected to be worth over $100 billion a year by 2020

    You might be interested in reading this article Grid-connected energy storage: a new piece in the UK energy puzzle | In-depth | The Engineer
    Best regards, Pat.Twitter-energy economy news _ _ Each to their ability, together we progress.

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    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    These people have "a highly reversible, gas cycle machine that works as both an engine and a heat pump
    It looks a bit like a Sterling engine - Philips worked on it for years but I've no idea how successful they were. Their claim of 70% efficiency looks high based on having some kind of reciprocating cylinder driving a generator. They talk of a modular system which suggests that the individual containers are relatively small. When I looked at the diagram, my first reaction was that it looks like an air dryer skid, so I'd guess the 2 vessels are probably approx 1m dia x 2m high.
    Short answer is that it might have application on a small specialty installation but I doubt it would be suitable for large scale power generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Short answer is that it might have application on a small specialty installation but I doubt it would be suitable for large scale power generation.
    Why would that be? Suppose all the wind turbines in a western county were hooked up to one of those: wouldn't that be just the job for countering intermittency in wind energy? Any time the wind blows, the county's powered directly, any time it's calm, the PHES will maintain power levels until the wind start blowing again or a turf-powered station powers up. That way you could have a 100% import-free power system: direct from wind 90% of the time, PHES for calm periods 9% of the time and turf-burning power for the 1% rare periods when calm episodes last so long it might exhaust the storage ability of PHES.

    It would be an insurance policy against a Eurozone collapse where Ireland would face extremely painful period trying to get petrol from Saudi (and other fossil imports from other places) using a heavily devalued punt. Organisations could run skeleton services using electric vehicles, such as buses and ambulances.

    Nevertheless, if you say there is some engineering flaw in the matter preventing this from occurring, I'd like to know. I consider myself competent to make up my own mind on economic matters, so I will be hard to persuade if you tell me that economic cost is the reason it can't work. I will challenge you for evidence on any economic arguments you put forth, but engineering I will take on trust.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member gracethepirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    It looks a bit like a Sterling engine - Philips worked on it for years but I've no idea how successful they were. Their claim of 70% efficiency looks high based on having some kind of reciprocating cylinder driving a generator. They talk of a modular system which suggests that the individual containers are relatively small. When I looked at the diagram, my first reaction was that it looks like an air dryer skid, so I'd guess the 2 vessels are probably approx 1m dia x 2m high.
    Short answer is that it might have application on a small specialty installation but I doubt it would be suitable for large scale power generation.
    That's the way we should be going - small installations for household use. Energy autonomy.

    Leave large scale power generation to the manufacturers who need more electricity than most, and cannot be served by a series of small installations.
    Brexit comes straight from hell. Everywhere it goes it causes disharmony, turbulence and misery. I think Brexiteers themselves must have some form of mental illness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    It looks a bit like a Sterling engine - Philips worked on it for years but I've no idea how successful they were. Their claim of 70% efficiency looks high based on having some kind of reciprocating cylinder driving a generator. They talk of a modular system which suggests that the individual containers are relatively small. When I looked at the diagram, my first reaction was that it looks like an air dryer skid, so I'd guess the 2 vessels are probably approx 1m dia x 2m high.
    Short answer is that it might have application on a small specialty installation but I doubt it would be suitable for large scale power generation.
    wombat,

    I have been keeping an eye on this company for a few years now, at first I doubted that they could achieve the compressor efficiencies which would be required but they were quite clever and attracted an investment from a certain asian compressor manufacturer with good tech.

    They see their market at the local distribution transformer and industrial sites with their own generation.

    I last spoke to them about a year ago and at that stage the storage tanks at full scale will be about 10m high and 25m diameter.
    Best regards, Pat.Twitter-energy economy news _ _ Each to their ability, together we progress.

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    Politics.ie Member Dan_Murphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracethepirate View Post
    That's the way we should be going - small installations for household use. Energy autonomy.

    Leave large scale power generation to the manufacturers who need more electricity than most, and cannot be served by a series of small installations.
    Why? Surely we would benefit with greater economies of scale with national companies?

    I agree that as a country we need to massively reduce our imports of energy from other countries, but household level sounds too low to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Murphy View Post
    Why? Surely we would benefit with greater economies of scale with national companies?

    I agree that as a country we need to massively reduce our imports of energy from other countries, but household level sounds too low to me.
    These things don't easily scale up and when they do as they scale up the efficiencies tend to drop off.

    I'd like some more pumped storage in place, just for the elegance of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gracethepirate View Post
    There definitely needs to be a change in energy supply. The ideal is to have individual houses producing their own energy (solar panels etc. but not wind power which is a waste of money). At the very least towns/suburbs should control their energy supply. None of us should be dependent on nationl energy companies, let alone multi-nationals, to supply our energy.

    New Scientist has an article on energy being produced from air, which is interesting because it would use carbon dioxide therefore would help reduce CO2 levels (which may lead to a global cooling problem...). However, it is not feasible yet.

    I haven't any information on the method you mention, but if it works and is easy to produce on a local level, imho it would perhaps end the need for multi-national supply.


    Ask this guy seems like the solution is the re. But we need another Whitaker / lemass to make the dream a reality

    http://www.seas.harvard.edu/directory/mbm


    EnviroSolutions - Daily News
    Last edited by supermac2; 10th November 2012 at 04:59 PM.

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