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Thread: Are there any actual reasons to vote no?

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    Default Are there any actual reasons to vote no?

    Are there any actual reasons to vote no?

    There has been very little debate about the proposed amendment. The no ideas seem to fall into a few categories:

    1. The Constitutional purist
    The fewer words in a Constitution the better and additional words can have unintended consequences. The beauty of this argument is you don't have to specify those consequences and just refer to x case.

    2. The State is a poor substitute for parents.
    This argument is great because there is a wealth of evidence of where the State has failed eg industrial schools, magdelene laundries, state facilitating illegal adoptions, HSE losing children who die on its watch, and Judge Reilly's report into St Patrick's institute. This argument ignores the fact that a parent or parents had already failed.

    3. It's a power grab by the State
    That's kind of the point, the State has identified a gap in the law, where it believes the laws are deficient and it cannot provide the support it needs.

    4. We don't need the referendum
    Relying on a partial quote by Hardiman J in the Baby Ann case, they ask would its provisions have made any difference to the abuse suffered since the foundation of the State. I don't think a referendum is required for extending marriage to same-sex partners, but Eamon Gilmore insists on going down the referendum route, it would not stop me voting for it.

    5. Cost
    If every child has right to be heard, then failed deportees will rely on their childrens' rights to stop it. Except of course the right to be heard is narrower than that.

    The above doesn't wash for me, but I don't want to misinterpret any legitimate views if those opposing the referendum but are there any actual reasons to vote no?
    Edit
    6. The yes side are lying liars who lie (lie is unspecified)
    7. The yes side have not met the standard of proof to shift the onus to the no side.
    8. Everyone seems to be voting yes, so a no vote provides space to think.
    Last edited by Con Gallagher; 28th October 2012 at 08:35 PM.

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    Catherine McGuinness wrote that the Constitution inhibited social workers in the Kilkenny Incest Case but ignores the fact that Article 42.5 allows for intervention in such cases. Given that the supporters of the amendment are lying about the issue of whether or not the amendment is necessary, it must be asked:

    What else are they lying about?

    In other words, the Yes side cannot be trusted.

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    Politics.ie Member edifice.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Con Gallagher View Post
    Are there any actual reasons to vote no?

    There has been very little debate about the proposed amendment. The no ideas seem to fall into a few categories:

    1. The Constitutional purist
    The fewer words in a Constitution the better and additional words can have unintended consequences. The beauty of this argument is you don't have to specify those consequences and just refer to x case.

    2. The State is a poor substitute for parents.
    This argument is great because there is a wealth of evidence of where the State has failed eg industrial schools, magdelene laundries, state facilitating illegal adoptions, HSE losing children who die on its watch, and Judge Reilly's report into St Patrick's institute. This argument ignores the fact that a parent or parents had already failed.

    3. It's a power grab by the State
    That's kind of the point, the State has identified a gap in the law, where it believes the laws are deficient and it cannot provide the support it needs.

    4. We don't need the referendum
    Relying on a partial quote by Hardiman J in the Baby Ann case, they ask would its provisions have made any difference to the abuse suffered since the foundation of the State. I don't think a referendum is required for extending marriage to same-sex partners, but Eamon Gilmore insists on going down the referendum route, it would not stop me voting for it.

    5. Cost
    If every child has right to be heard, then failed deportees will rely on their childrens' rights to stop it. Except of course the right to be heard is narrower than that.

    The above doesn't wash for me, but I don't want to misinterpret any legitimate views if those opposing the referendum but are there any actual reasons to vote no?
    I'm voting No for a simple enough reason: I view this amendment as a pathetic attempt by the State and the establishment, media included, to somehow to be seen to make high brow amends for their gross collective failure to protect children in the first place.
    All great truths begin as blasphemies!

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    Politics.ie Member ruserious's Avatar
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    Devil's advocate. If this is passed, there will be few calls in the future to bring in more reforms such as the right of children to have their unmarried father to be a natural legal guardian.
    Boycott the "Irish" Sun rag.

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    Politics.ie Member borntorum's Avatar
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    What if you just don't like children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edifice. View Post
    I'm voting No for a simple enough reason: I view this amendment as a pathetic attempt by the State and the establishment, media included, to somehow to be seen to make high brow amends for their gross collective failure to protect children in the first place.
    The motives behind the amendment are irrelevant to the content of the amendment itself though. Either the amendment is good, and you should vote yes, or it is bad and you should vote no. Everything else is immaterial.

    Quote Originally Posted by borntorum View Post
    What if you just don't like children?
    I've been greatly disappointed by the lack of 'no to children' posters.

  7. #7

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    When a law is rushed through and everybody seems to be in favour of it then its a good reason to oppose simply because the herd mentality in making laws always suck.

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    Politics.ie Member edifice.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilting View Post
    The motives behind the amendment are irrelevant to the content of the amendment itself though. Either the amendment is good, and you should vote yes, or it is bad and you should vote no. Everything else is immaterial.
    Wrong. The abuse of children was wrong but it was ulterior motives that governed how it was dealt with, or not, in this case.
    All great truths begin as blasphemies!

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    Politics.ie Member rockofcashel's Avatar
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    Yeah, you won't be able to give your child a smack for being bold..
    1,197 people agree with me.. how many agree with you ?

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    Politics.ie Member blokesbloke's Avatar
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    I don't have a vote, of course, but if I did I would be inclined to vote "no" simply on the basis that I feel that if an amendment to a Constitution is proposed, the onus is on the people promoting the amendment to tell me why it is necessary, not that of the "no" side to tell me why it isn't.

    I have yet to see a coherent argument which gives me specific reasons why this is needed - and what protections will be available for children after this amendment is passed that are not available now, and why they need a Constitutional amendment to make them instead of simply a new law.

    If in doubt I would vote "no" and so far I am in doubt.
    Brexit? Never heard of it mate...

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