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Thread: Consultants who do they think they are?

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    Default Consultants who do they think they are?

    So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
    Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

    The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

    From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by partnership View Post
    So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
    Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

    The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

    From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
    Would you like to give us some examples of how consultants have not engaged in major change ( from your own knowledge)?

    After all they have the lowest absenteeism rate of any group, it would show some dedication towards their patients so I am curious how they have not engaged.

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    The consultants know what the problems are in the Health Service/HSE and they do not want to see it being dragged down the gutter with incompetent overpaid advisers, uselees manages who do more work on the golf course, and a Figurehead who mistakes a sick note for the euro note, and who's only interest is to privatise the Health Service

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    In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

    I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seabhcan View Post
    In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

    I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.
    What purpose would that serve? You'd still be top heavy with useless and highly paid administrators. These are the real problem but unfortunately they are hardly going to sack themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by partnership View Post
    So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
    Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

    The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

    From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
    Consultants who do they think they are?.. Possibly just Consultants?.. Why.. who should they think they are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by partnership View Post
    So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
    Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

    The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

    From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
    I think you are mixing up a number of issues here

    IHCA = Irish Hospital Consultants Association - Formed 1987 NOT A UNION, formed as split from IMO who at time were organising strike for Junior doctors (IHCA were ant-strike and said they would never strike but changed their opinions in recent years)

    IHCA= Has an ability to negotiate with government BUT because not legally a union it cant engage in collective bargaining

    IMO (Irish medical Organisation) IS A UNION, can enter collective bargaining, does and has committed to Labour Court and represents all branches of medicine, students, junior hospital doctors, consultants, public health specialists, army medical officers, Community Physicians etc

    Practically, legally and realistically there is a world of difference between the two bodies but the media speak more of the IHCA in relation to consultant issues, I think this current scenario has shown them up a little because it would appear as if they are not engaging when in reality they can't

    Maybe the HSE/DOH/Government should not be dealing with them and only dealing with IMO.

    To Be fair I think you are misquoting Mr Varley above I dont believe he said that at all, IHCA were not signed up to Croke Park because they were legally not one of the bodies that could sign up to Croke park, Ironically IMO on behalf of GPs wanted to sign up to Croke park for them but Government would not let them because they felt it was against competition law so you have a very unusual position with respect to GPs

    Regarding your own knowledge of health would like to have examples of where you have experience of consultants not engaging because I have experience otherwise

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    Quote Originally Posted by seabhcan View Post
    In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

    I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.
    That would be one solution, good luck with running a health service in the absence of consultants.

    If there is a strike a Union has to provide emergency cover

    If you fire them all they dont have to provide any cover, overnight there would be no hospital system, that is impractical BUT would love to hear your idea how we would manage that

    Consultants do have high salaries and because of that they could afford to hold out for a period, do you think they might even be in a stronger position in a short time frame when the media start trotting out stories of people who have died or been injured because there were no consultants, hard to criticise people who are not in their jobs when you have fired them, during a strike different scenario

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiii View Post
    What purpose would that serve? You'd still be top heavy with useless and highly paid administrators. These are the real problem but unfortunately they are hardly going to sack themselves.
    Fire the lot of 'em.

    It's like the quangos....there's hundreds of the buggers and we have no idea which, if any, of them actually do anything useful at all.

    Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

    You could do it in a rolling phased basis over three years or so. Just go through each department, each quango etc in batches. Tell the staff they are on three months garden leave on full pay and send them home.

    It'll very quickly become blatantly obvious who the worker bees are and who the wasters are, and which jobs actually need to actually be done. K, doing this in essential services would be a bit more complex but the principle remains the same.

    The State is bankrupt and under foreign administration FFS, this is no time for hand-wringing limpology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SideysGhost View Post
    Fire the lot of 'em.

    It's like the quangos....there's hundreds of the buggers and we have no idea which, if any, of them actually do anything useful at all.

    Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

    You could do it in a rolling phased basis over three years or so. Just go through each department, each quango etc in batches. Tell the staff they are on three months garden leave on full pay and send them home.

    It'll very quickly become blatantly obvious who the worker bees are and who the wasters are, and which jobs actually need to actually be done. K, doing this in essential services would be a bit more complex but the principle remains the same.

    The State is bankrupt and under foreign administration FFS, this is no time for hand-wringing limpology.


    The mind boggles!

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