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Thread: Casualties in Dublin in the civil war

  1. #31
    Politics.ie Member Campion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage_economist View Post
    I've just finished reading, "The Flame and the Candle", a recent book about the fighting in Mayo 1919-1923. I took a few notes as I went along, and was surprised to find that around as many were killed after the Truce as before it, and that nearly all of these appeared to be Irish. Only one casualty was definitely British, a soldier killed in the Tourmakedy Ambush, although as Black and Tans were part of the RIC and weren't listed separately there may have been a few from that organisation. As the Auxiliaries reported directly to Dublin Castle and weren't part of the RIC I would have thought they would have been listed separately, had any been killed.

    The question could be raised as to what degree the War of Independence was a civil war, given that the majority of protagonists on both sides were Irish.
    That British guy in Mayo was accidental or collateral damage-- for hundreds of years the people in Tourmakeady have ambushed anyone who doesn't look familiar to them. Its worse still in Partry, where men have been known to ambush their own mothers.

  2. #32
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    By the by, casualty figures for the War of Independence here.

    and casualties for Dublin in the Appendix of this article.

    Today in Irish History, The Burning of the Custom House, May 25, 1921 | The Irish Story, Irish History Online

  3. #33
    Politics.ie Member Evergreenfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitch 22 View Post
    There were pogroms in Northern Ireland at the time.
    How can it be a pogrom when the casualty figures for each side worked out 42/58%!

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aindriu View Post
    The whigs haven't existed for over 100 years! FG and FF still exist - unfortunately.
    That is over two hundred and fifty years they lasted so, going by current statistics we will have Fianna Fáil around for another 160 years so, with Fine Gale tipped to survive much longer seeing as the Tories are still around today!
    "If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #35
    Humbert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I'm always struck by what we are told was the extraordinary bitterness that lingered between the two sides after such a low-intensity conflict.

    I often think that they must have hated each other before, the war just brought it out.

    In this connection the tribal theory - that you have those who desire a pure 'gaelic' Ireland, those who believe in tolerance between those of different descents, and Unionists - is compelling, for those are still the main divisions in Irish politics.

    I feel the Civil War was really about who what the identity of the new country was going to be - the casualties certainly do not seem to warrant a party division which has lasted nearly 100 years.

  6. #36
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    Article had since been updated as of November 2014

    Casualties of the Irish Civil War in Dublin | The Irish Story

    218 killed and 695 wounded in the city and its environs from January 1922 to May 1923 due to political violence.

    A detailed breakdown is in the table below but the dead were; 68 Free State forces, 85 Anti-Treaty IRA and 58 civilians. Along with 4 British Army and 1 RIC killed.

    And roughly 3,500 people arrested and interned.

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    I do have a problem with John Dourney's casualty figures for the 16-23 period. His is an extremely good website but I'm not quite sure why so much faith must be put into the British Army's official casualty lists. For example, John's piece about Mount Street bridge takes the amount of killed directly from the BA's records. The BA (and indeed every army in the history of warfare) have a long history of playing down their own casualties and exaggerating their enemies. Its a natural occurrence but why take only one side's figure as gospel?

    Right throughout the Anglo-Irish war, the national press under control of the the Government, minimised crown forces casualties and totally fabricated those of the old IRA (the old IRA of course did the exact opposite).

    Why the assumption that the BA's casualty figures are unerringly accurate when history tells us that's rarely been the case?

  8. #38
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    While you're right about the general tendency of armies to understate their casualties, the likes of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission seem to have been fairly rigorous in trying to document British soldiers' deaths. They would be a useful source against which to cross-check the official claims. Local papers from the time are another valuable source.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Well, yes we were actually quite fortunate.

    And even the deths that hadocurred could have been avoided if both sides were not so hot tempered and intransigent.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbert View Post
    I'm always struck by what we are told was the extraordinary bitterness that lingered between the two sides after such a low-intensity conflict.

    I often think that they must have hated each other before, the war just brought it out.

    In this connection the tribal theory - that you have those who desire a pure 'gaelic' Ireland, those who believe in tolerance between those of different descents, and Unionists - is compelling, for those are still the main divisions in Irish politics.

    I feel the Civil War was really about who what the identity of the new country was going to be - the casualties certainly do not seem to warrant a party division which has lasted nearly 100 years.
    Nonsense. In fact utter bullsh!t.

    The division was mostly based on the "haves" versus the "have-nots".
    Both have different objectives, and a different mentality.

    The "haves" wanted to keep their influence, power, privileges, status, wealth (however small).
    The "have nots" wanted to level the playing field and were motivated by different objectives.

    It was control versus ambition.
    Authority versus rebellion.
    Respectability versus revolt.
    Coveney's ambition is the be Ireland's next EU Commissar and Ireland will pay a price as he builds his CV to position himself sufficiently loyal to the nEU empire.

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