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Thread: Casualties in Dublin in the civil war

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Are Finnish politics still poisoned by their Civil war in the same way as Irish Politics are?
    The only reason Irish politics is "poisoned" by the civil war is because one side is angry with the other side that they defected from the Irish Republic and fought for the formation of the British Free State.

    English rule in Ireland is the poison.

  2. #22
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    i knew people who faught in the civil war, they didn't like to talk about it presumed that was because of things that happened during it, reading this thread not much happened.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Mute View Post
    Maybe that's because it only took place in southern Ireland.
    There were pogroms in Northern Ireland at the time.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitch 22 View Post
    There were pogroms in Northern Ireland at the time.
    I know. I was only saying the civil war was in Southern Ireland as Ireland was/is partitioned by the English under the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

  5. #25
    Politics.ie Member shutuplaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Are Finnish politics still poisoned by their Civil war in the same way as Irish Politics are?

    I dunno in all honestly. I wouldn't be surprised if the severity of the Finnish war meant that all parties made a greater effort to put it behind then and move on. Much like Germany and France now.
    itís the continuing series of small tragedies, that send a man to the, madhouse

  6. #26
    Politics.ie Member statsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ON THE ONE ROAD View Post
    i knew people who faught in the civil war, they didn't like to talk about it presumed that was because of things that happened during it, reading this thread not much happened.
    Not many deaths but I suspect a lot of families broken by virtue of fighting for/supporting different sides.
    Put a thief among honest men and they will eventually relieve him of his watch. Flann O'Brien

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ON THE ONE ROAD View Post
    i knew people who faught in the civil war, they didn't like to talk about it presumed that was because of things that happened during it, reading this thread not much happened.
    Nonsense, 1,500 deaths in nine months is huge by Irish standards; this rises to about 2,000 if you add in the vioence in the north in early 1922. Add on 2,000 deaths from 1917-21 and 500 in 1916 and the toll is not enourmous but not insignificant either.

    By comparison the worst year of the Troubles was in 1972 when about 450 were killed, and no one, with knowledge of how much pain and bitterness that conflict caused would claim that 'not much happened.'

  8. #28
    Dylan2010
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    what would have happened if there hadnt been partition, would you have got your 40,000 dead?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan2010 View Post
    what would have happened if there hadnt been partition, would you have got your 40,000 dead?
    I don't honestly think so. Violence in the north was quite bad anyway, but according to latest figures I've seen, in a book called 'Frontiers of Violence' the death toll from 1920-22 in nine county Ulster was 714 killed.

    There was open hostilities to some extent along the border in early 1922 between the IRA (pro and anti_treaty) and Ulster Specials, especially at Pettigo, where there was a mini battle including the bombardment and storming of the town (which straddles the border) by British regulars. But the fighting was very much much like that later in the year between pro and anti-Treaty forces. Lots of shooting but few casulaties (8 IRA one British soldier and 2 USC and 2 civilians). Artillery decided the matter in short order.

    None of the rival militias in Ireland, except for the British and the British backed Free State forces were set up for conventional war. Without partition, British troops would have been used to put down Ulster Volunteer resistance to enforce Home Rule and would probably have done so with relative ease provided they obey orders. There would certainly have been sectarian killings but would they have been much worse than what actually happened?

    Of course the other possibility is that the British pulled out unilaterally (never really likely) leaving vulnerable minorities open to mass expulsion or killing. But thankfully nothing remitely like this happened in that period.

  10. #30
    Politics.ie Member cottage_economist's Avatar
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    I've just finished reading, "The Flame and the Candle", a recent book about the fighting in Mayo 1919-1923. I took a few notes as I went along, and was surprised to find that around as many were killed after the Truce as before it, and that nearly all of these appeared to be Irish. Only one casualty was definitely British, a soldier killed in the Tourmakedy Ambush, although as Black and Tans were part of the RIC and weren't listed separately there may have been a few from that organisation. As the Auxiliaries reported directly to Dublin Castle and weren't part of the RIC I would have thought they would have been listed separately, had any been killed.

    The question could be raised as to what degree the War of Independence was a civil war, given that the majority of protagonists on both sides were Irish.

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