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Thread: Casualties in Dublin in the civil war

  1. #11
    Politics.ie Member Aindriu's Avatar
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    Good point, Cruimh. Irish people STILL vote for parties on the basis of what side their grand parents/uncles, aunts etc. were on 90 years ago! Feckin stupid!
    If you continue to elect idiots in elections, don't be surprised when the result is an idiotic government.

  2. #12
    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aindriu View Post
    Good point, Cruimh. Irish people STILL vote for parties on the basis of what side their grand parents/uncles, aunts etc. were on 90 years ago! Feckin stupid!
    There seems to be still a whiff of "unfinished business".

    I'm wondering is that is because the Civil War was relatively small scale?

  3. #13
    Politics.ie Member statsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Are Finnish politics still poisoned by their Civil war in the same way as Irish Politics are?
    Their Civil War was nasty and short; ours was relatively bloodless but enduring.
    Put a thief among honest men and they will eventually relieve him of his watch. Flann O'Brien

  4. #14
    Politics.ie Member euryalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aindriu View Post
    Good point, Cruimh. Irish people STILL vote for parties on the basis of what side their grand parents/uncles, aunts etc. were on 90 years ago! Feckin stupid!
    And of course English politics was, for very many years, largely dictated by the legacy of a civil war - the Tories being the former "Cavalier" party, whereas the Whigs were the former Parliamentarians.
    "Cast a cold eye ......."

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Are Finnish politics still poisoned by their Civil war in the same way as Irish Politics are?
    Irish politics is imprisoned by populism and politicians that are afraid to make the tough decisions. The Civil War has nothing to do with our political landscape now save for a handful of people.
    "If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #16
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    The reason why casualties were so low compared to other 20th century wars is because Ireland is such a close-knit country.
    Very few actually fought in the War of Independence because the face of the British state in Ireland was the RIC, the majority of whom in the 26 counties were Irishmen, Catholics and Nationalists who supported Home Rule. Before the arrival of the Tans and Auxilliaries and British Regiments to Ireland, the majority of "British" soldiers in Ireland were actually Irishmen and between 1919-1921, 20,000 Irishmen joined up.
    During the Civil War, Richard Barrett who was shot after he was selected with other three prisoners from the four provinces of Ireland was a childhood friend of the Hales brothers. Sean Hales who took the Free Treaty side out of loyalty to Michael Collins was assassinated while his brother Tom Hales was anti-Treaty IRA commander who is said to have participated in the ambush that killed Collins.
    When Collins was was killed thousands of republican prisoners in various prisons were observed kneeling and saying the rosary and De Valera was said to have been inconsolable after his death.
    Florrie O'Donoghue and Sean O'Hegarty and others formed the "Neutral IRA" which opposed the Anglo-Irish Treaty but tried to avoid hostilities.
    The bitterness came after the execution of the 77 in jails around the country and reprisal like the burning of W. T. Cosgrave's home and the murder of his father.
    But during the conventional military campaign before that from June to August 1922, the Provisional Forces were clearly the more professional forces with better numbers (50,000 by the end of the war) better arms (artillery, armored cars, machine guns, rifles, hand grenades and ammunition) and discipline while the IRA were very much a rabble except for notable exceptions such as Tom Barry's West Cork unit which recaptured some towns.
    After Dublin fell Waterford and Limerick were recaptured easily enough with few casualties because former comrades were hesitant to shoot at each other. There were incidents later on in the war when Free State officers and men were overcome by inferior IRA forces because they had no stomach for a massacre or because they were isolated from GHQ in Dublin.
    It could well be argued that the war would have dragged on much longer if the likes of the Dublin Guard and cabinet members like Kevin O'Higgins had not behaved so brutally to stamp out rebellion through terror.
    If the IRA had been better led and better armed and if larger numbers of the Free State army had defected to their side the war would have been far more bloody in the end.
    Thankfully thousands of republican prisoners were released by the mid 1920s rather than shot into mass graves as happened in Spain in the 1930s.
    Last edited by Hitch 22; 19th June 2012 at 11:35 AM.

  7. #17
    Politics.ie Member Aindriu's Avatar
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    the Whigs were the former Parliamentarians.
    The whigs haven't existed for over 100 years! FG and FF still exist - unfortunately.
    If you continue to elect idiots in elections, don't be surprised when the result is an idiotic government.

  8. #18
    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euryalus View Post
    And of course English politics was, for very many years, largely dictated by the legacy of a civil war - the Tories being the former "Cavalier" party, whereas the Whigs were the former Parliamentarians.
    Jaysus - auto-whataboutery

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    There seems to be still a whiff of "unfinished business".

    I'm wondering is that is because the Civil War was relatively small scale?
    Maybe that's because it only took place in southern Ireland.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutuplaura View Post
    This is very true. Finland had a similar population to Ireland and their Civil war in 1918 cost almost 40,000 lives. I think the difference being that both sides in that conflict had international support from surrounding nations. In Ireland only one of the two parties had this support.
    The civil war only happened in the Free State.

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