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Thread: Casualties in Dublin in the civil war

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    Default Casualties in Dublin in the civil war

    Article here on casualty figures for Dublin in the Irish Civil War.

    Casualties of the Irish Civil War in Dublin | The Irish Story, Irish History Online

    I have counted 168 killed and 695 wounded in the city and its environs. A detailed breakdown is in the article but the dead were; 51 National Army, 65 IRA and 52 civilians. This is a provisional figure, however, it may be be slightly too low.

    The casualty figure for the 1922-23 conflict has never been calculated (estimates vary from 900 to 4,000) but taken together with other local studies, this suggests, tentatively, a death toll in the region of 1,500.

    Edit: for the record, the latest version of this article (August 2014) put the figures somewhat higher: KIA:218, 68 Free State forces, 85 Anti-Treaty IRA and 58 civilians. The British Army suffered 6 dead and 1 RIC Inspector was killed.
    Last edited by JohnD66; 11th April 2015 at 11:06 AM.

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    Politics.ie Member Toland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD66 View Post
    Article here on casualty figures for Dublin in the Irish Civil War.

    Casualties of the Irish Civil War in Dublin | The Irish Story, Irish History Online

    I have counted 168 killed and 695 wounded in the city and its environs. A detailed breakdown is in the article but the dead were; 51 National Army, 65 IRA and 52 civilians. This is a provisional figure, however, it may be be slightly too low.

    The casualty figure for the 1922-23 conflict has never been calculated (estimates vary from 900 to 4,000) but taken together with other local studies, this suggests, tentatively, a death toll in the region of 1,500.


    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Good point. We can perhaps count ourselves fortunate that we escaped the horrors that were visited upon many of the peoples of the continent at the time.

    I mentioned a Latvian acquaintince of mine on the Katyn thread and what struck me was that while she would retail the bare details of what had happened to her own family under Stalinism, that she really did not want to talk about it. I get the impression that the scale and almost meaninglessness of what had happened - in that people were randomly victimised - makes ift very difficult to contextualise.

    In this country, we can at least say that we know why most people were killed and on no matter what side, even find something noble or at least meaningful in their deaths.

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    Yes, the scale and barbarity of something like Katyn is almost impossible to comprehend. Bad enough as the trouble was in Ireland, at least we didn't have to deal with that kind of suffering. I guess the sad thing is that humanity hasn't changed a bit since those times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franker65 View Post
    Yes, the scale and barbarity of something like Katyn is almost impossible to comprehend. Bad enough as the trouble was in Ireland, at least we didn't have to deal with that kind of suffering. I guess the sad thing is that humanity hasn't changed a bit since those times.
    You reckon?

    I think things have changed very radically for the better since then.

    I'd contend that judgement is blindingly obvious.

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    Politics.ie Member shutuplaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is very true. Finland had a similar population to Ireland and their Civil war in 1918 cost almost 40,000 lives. I think the difference being that both sides in that conflict had international support from surrounding nations. In Ireland only one of the two parties had this support.
    it’s the continuing series of small tragedies, that send a man to the, madhouse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.

    That, of course, didn't take anything from the grief of the surviving friends and relatives of the dead. Nor does it take from the savagery of Ballyseedy or of the Free State's extra-judicial killings.

    Executions during the Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Agreed; it's no new discovery that bad stuff happens during Civil Wars. The only redeeming feature in our own one is that it turned out to be a relatively minor spat.
    Put a thief among honest men and they will eventually relieve him of his watch. Flann O'Brien

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutuplaura View Post
    This is very true. Finland had a similar population to Ireland and their Civil war in 1918 cost almost 40,000 lives. I think the difference being that both sides in that conflict had international support from surrounding nations. In Ireland only one of the two parties had this support.

    There was also arguably much sharper social tensions in Finland and when both sides had a chance they were pretty vicious. There was the factor of external support, bigger numbers of armed men and more - and more lethal - weaponry but most of the casualties were I think basically atrocities - people killed in their homes or in prison camps or mass executions.

    Civil war here might have been more vicious had say the Land War not been fought and the land question still a central issue. There were obviously class tensions in Ireland but they were not central to the conflict and people were not identified with one side or the other by their social class although the republicans did prosecute a low level campaign against the 'big houses' which were in any event mainly unoccupied since 1919 or 1920 or even earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutuplaura View Post
    This is very true. Finland had a similar population to Ireland and their Civil war in 1918 cost almost 40,000 lives. I think the difference being that both sides in that conflict had international support from surrounding nations. In Ireland only one of the two parties had this support.
    Are Finnish politics still poisoned by their Civil war in the same way as Irish Politics are?

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    Even compared to the War of Independence, the violence of the civil war was to some degree limited. There was far less shooting of informers for instance, of which to date I have not found any cases in Dublin in 1922-23 as opposed to 15 in May and June 1921 alone.

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