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Thread: Reverse discrimination against Irish in Ireland

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    Default Reverse discrimination against Irish in Ireland

    Reverse discrimination occurs when Ireland gives their own citizens a treatment that is less favourable than the treatment Ireland gives to other Union citizens, provided for in EC law. Inferior treatment of Irish Nationals by the Irish state. This reverse discrimination has only recently been introduced into Ireland by bad Irish policy and procedure.

    The EU rights that are denied to Irish Citizens and their family by this discrimination include rights to visa free travel and rights to family reunification.

    Other EU states avoided such discrimination when they transposed the EU directive on free movement by clarifying that their own citizens family, may claim EU privileges if more favourable than existing National rights.

    Ireland has chosen not to give their own citizens these equal rights, and have not given a proper explanation or justification why.

    The Irish Justice administration have implemented reverse discrimination against Irish in Ireland.

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    Here is a comparison of unequal rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by EU Citizens rights in Ireland
    PROTECTION PROVIDED BY COMMUNITY LAW

    “AUTOMATIC” RIGHT OF ENTRY

    The Community right to accompany or join the Union citizen in the host Member State is granted to the following family members:

    * the spouse,
    * the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted a registered partnership, on the basis of the legislation of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage and in accordance with the conditions laid down in the relevant legislation of the host Member State,
    * the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or registered partner,
    * the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or registered partner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Case Law from the ECJ, confirming rights

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...3C0157:EN:HTML

    A national of a non-Member State who is the member of the family of a Community national exercising his right of freedom of movement cannot be equated with a national of a non-Member State without that family tie; on the contrary, that national of a non-Member State is the beneficiary of derived rights under Community law and thus enjoys the same rights of entry into and residence in the territory of another Member State as a Community national.
    As an Irishman, you no longer have an automatic right to family life. to have your wife live with you, in your own home. You must now go cap in hand, and beg for permission.
    Quote Originally Posted by Department of Justice, INIS
    Marriage to an Irish national does not confer an automatic right of residence in the State. A non EEA national who wishes to reside in the State on the basis of their marriage to an Irish national must make an application for permission to remain in the State.

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    And here is how we arrived at this situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by John O’Donoghue, removing post-nuptial citizenship from the Irish Family

    Dil ireann - Volume 536 - 22 May, 2001 - Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1999 [ Seanad ] : Report and Final Stages.
    Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy John O’Donoghue):

    The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the position of non-national spouses in terms of their joining their spouses in the State, nor will it adversely affect their right to work.

    Select Committee on Justice Equality Defence & Women's Rights - Default 001108
    Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy John O’Donoghue):

    The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals

    The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.

    In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.
    He misled, lied and after came the final betrayal

    Quote Originally Posted by Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern):
    Marriage to an Irish national does not confer any automatic right to enter to reside in the State solely on that basis.

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    Is what you are saying related in any way to the Schengen Agreement ?

    This I understand provides for passport-free-travel within the EU for all citizens of the Community except those from Britain and Ireland who may be required, and generally are, to produce their passports in the other EU country to which they are travelling.

    Why do you think the type of discrimation, you allege occurs, applies to Irish citizens outside Britain and elsewhere in the Community ?

    You appear to be saying that Irish citizens do not automatically have a right of residence elsewhere in EU ( apart from Britain) but must apply to the authorities in other EU countries for permission to permanently reside in those countries.

    Have I got it right ?

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    The spouse of Irish Citizens resident in Ireland under National Law are issued with a STAMP-4 in their passport, usually for only 1 year, depending on the discretion of the Garda. Its validity is limited to the expiry date of the passport.. The STAMP-4 is useless for travel, either to other EU states, or back into Ireland. This causes unnecessary restriction of travel for the Irish family, as visas must be sought for EU travel, apparently even to travel to the north of Ireland. And furthermore, believe it or not, even an Irish re-entry visa, must be obtained to travel back into the Republic for Irish Family already holding an Irish resident permit.

    The spouse of other EU citizens resident in Ireland are given EU privileges and are issued with a 4EUFam card, for 5 years The Card is separate from the passport, and must by EU directive 2004/38/EC be valid for 5 years, regardless of expiry date of passport, This 4EUFam card exempts the holder from:

    * All other EU visas
    * Irish Re-Entry visa
    * Having their passport stamped at passport control.

    However other Member states, to avoid possible discrimination, grant their own citizens families at least the same rights as EU families, if not more, granting 4EUFam cards to their own Allowing freedom of movement to their own family. For example Portugal. Under Portuguese National Law Article 3º, n.º 5 of the Act n.º 37/2006, (Transpose of EU directive 2004/38/EC), the regulations of this law applicable to family members are extendable to family members of citizens of Portuguese nationality, regardless of their nationality., thereby removing reverse discrimination, and allowing freedom of movement to Portuguese families.

    For the Italians, Article 23 of 30/2007 says “The provisions of this Legislative Decree, if more favourable, apply to the families of Italian citizens”. In Italian “Le disposizioni del presente decreto legislativo, se più favorevoli, si applicano ai familiari di cittadini italiani non aventi la cittadinanza italiana”

    Same for the Greeks. “In order to avoid possible discrimination we accept that third country nationals who are family members of Greek citizens enjoy the same rights with the family members of EU citizens.”

    Ireland has chosen not to give their own citizens these equal rights, and have not given a proper explanation or justification why.

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    The "reverse" in "reverse discrimination" stems from the assumption that it is always minorities who are discriminated against. It is this very assumption which helps to facilitate discrimination against the majority population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean O'Brian View Post
    The "reverse" in "reverse discrimination" stems from the assumption that it is always minorities who are discriminated against. It is this very assumption which helps to facilitate discrimination against the majority population.
    Sean, There are a number of law books on the subject, here are two. They explain it better than I can.
    Its a real problem created by bad Irish policy and procedure. It could be solved in the morning if the Minister
    made a statement saying he will grant Irish Citizens equal rights to other EU citizens.
    Its not much to ask for, is it ?

    Reverse Discrimination and Family Reunification
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverse Discrimination and Family Reunification by: Anne Walter
    Introduction
    So-called reverse discrimination occurs when EU Member States treat their own nationals less favourably than nationals of other Member States in situations where Community law applies. This phenomenon (discrimination of nationals or in German Inländerdiskriminierung) signifies that (in reverse) nationals and not foreigners are discriminated against. The term ‘EU citizen’ in this study describes mobile EU nationals exercising their freedom of movement rights. This phenomenon, known in various areas of European law and sometimes leading to odd results, is defined differently from a European or national law perspective.

    Reverse discrimination is primarily understood to be the result of the limited scope of Community law. In cases with a person- or content-related link to EC law the special prohibition of discrimination based on nationality under Article 12 EC is applicable. The description of what is a ‘matter of Community law’ acts at the same time as a boundary to what falls under a national approach. Cases without such a link to Community law, on the other hand are called ‘purely internal situation’. These cases are treated solely under national law of the Member States, and can differ from the solution under Community law. Reverse discrimination therefore pertains to an interface between Community law and national law, and hence the fundamental questions – scope and mode of operation – are related to the concept of Community law and raise the question of its objectives. Since the latter are not static in a European Union built on development, the phenomenon is simultaneously accorded a temporary character: “Reverse discrimination is clearly impossible in the long run within a true internal market, which must of necessity be based on the principle of equal treatment. Such discrimination must be eliminated [by means of the harmonisation of legislation]”. Up to this point, national law is applicable and reverse discrimination is outside the scope of Community law, especially Article 12 EC. From a national perspective, it is consequentially left to national law to solve the problem of reverse discrimination – possibly by adjusting it to Community law.
    Reverse Discrimination in EC Law - 9041127518 - 9789041127518 - Kluwer Law International
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverse Discrimination in EC Law by: Alina Tryfonidou
    The spectre of reverse discrimination arises when it can be shown that a group is treated more favourably than another group that is normally favoured, as a consequence of positive action measures. Until recently, EC jurisprudence has consistently rejected allegations that reverse discrimination emerging in the context of the Community’s internal market policy is an EC problem, reinforcing its commitment to ‘positive action’ as a facilitator of cross-border economic activities. However, with the advent of EU citizenship (in terms of persons) and the formal completion of the internal market (in terms of trade), it is now possible to meaningfully ask: Is reverse discrimination still a permissible form of differential treatment in the Community? Or should it now be considered, first, an unjustified difference in treatment between Union citizens (and thus a violation of the general principle of equality), and, second, an unacceptable distortion of the conditions of competition in a properly-functioning market?
    The Majority of EU states have policy that ensures equality for own
    citizens.
    Ireland, along with the UK and a minority have decided against equality
    and have chosen to implement reverse discrimination.
    Last edited by acme; 1st November 2010 at 01:58 PM.

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    A Guide to the Rights of family Reunification in Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by A Guide to the Rights of family Reunification in Ireland by: migrantproject.ie (formerly Emigrant Advice)


    Irish Citizen: No right
    Non-EEA spouse of Irish Citizen: No right
    EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
    Non-EEA spouse of EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
    Non-EEA Citizen (green card holder): yes, automatic right
    Non-EEA Citizen (work permit holder): yes, after 12 months
    Refugee: yes, automatic right
    Irish Citizens are not just put lower than EU citizens, but lower than green card holders.

    It is an utter scandal by an Irish Dept calling themselves Justice and Equality.
    The Majority of other EU states have policy that ensures equality for their own citizens.
    Last edited by acme; 31st October 2010 at 01:11 AM.

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    What a mark of shame on Dermot Ahern, if it takes the EU to give Irish People equal rights and rid Irish reverse discrimination.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...9C0034:EN:HTML
    150. I therefore suggest that the answer to the second question should be that Article 18 TFEU should be interpreted as prohibiting reverse discrimination caused by the interaction of Article 21 TFEU with national law that entails a violation of a fundamental right protected under EU law, where at least equivalent protection is not available under national law.
    Article 18 TFEU (former Article 12 EC) provides:
    ‘Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

    Article 21 TFEU (former Article 18 EC) provides:
    Every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaties and by the measures adopted to give them effect.
    Most EU countries already give equal rights to their own by default and prohibit reverse discrimination.
    Last edited by acme; 9th November 2010 at 09:04 AM.

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    I might be reading this wrong, but does this not only affect those that are not Irish born citizens? And perhaps Irish born citizens married to non-Irish born citizens and who have had children with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Department of Justice, INIS
    Marriage to an Irish national does not confer an automatic right of residence in the State. A non EEA national who wishes to reside in the State on the basis of their marriage to an Irish national must make an application for permission to remain in the State.
    That is what it sounds like to me! So this could be interpreted as a means of discouraging Irish citizens from marrying non-EU citizens.
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