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Thread: How much money are you needlessly losing to foreigners?

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Member
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    Default How much money are you needlessly losing to foreigners?

    There hasn't been a thread about this topic for months, and with the new numbers supplied by Karl Whelan, it's now justified. Several years ago, we had one almost lone voice in the media, yelling to a tiny audience about how we were making an outrageous financial error.

    David McWilliams enjoyed a rich diet of ridicule and scorn for his efforts to point out the facts behind the bubble nature of the housing market. His logic was flawless, but people weren't in the mood to accept any logic. So the bust happened and surprised almost everybody.

    History: first as tragedy; second time round, farce. It's happening again, only this time there's even less excuse for it.

    For all the foolishness of getting a mortgage, at least the victims of the housing madness got something out of it. They got a house. More significantly, they got the illusion that they were rich. Those are two genuine benefits that make your day seem better, which is no small thing.

    What excuse have the Solidarity Bond refuseniks?

    Here's one of the better-reasoned examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sync
    So because the state have made horrible financial decisions, I should make a horrible financial decision as well and lose on money? No thanks. I pay my taxes. If the state can't make do with those then that's not my issue.
    That's the point, you do pay your taxes. And where do those taxes go? They go to pay high interest rates to foreigners. You and your fellow taxpayers will pay €1.5bn in interest in the first year alone to foreign bondholders (source: The Irish Economy » 2010 » October). That money is gone forever, you will never see it again, because it will be spent in Tokyo, Macau, Sydney and Rio de Janeiro. It will never circulate in Ireland.

    So if you pay, say, €5000 in tax, that means that you are personally giving something like €250 to a foreigner.

    You could have avoided that pointless waste of money by simply becoming one of the lenders to Ireland. Instead of losing €250 forever, you'd have temporarily given up control of it, and got it back with interest.

    There's no way to sugar coat it. The "horrible financial decision" was patently the one you espoused. The two decisions have been market-tested, and yours is €250 worse. My proposal would have seen you invest €250 and, in time, get back about €300 to €400. Your counter-proposal leaves you being forced (by the Revenue) to give €250 to a foreigner for a personal return of €0.00.

    Nice going, Mr Gekko.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member cozzy121's Avatar
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    Yes, buy bonds issued by a country that's about to call in the IMF, they're as safe as houses.......
    "WAKE UP! THE RICH ARE RAPING YOU!"

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    Politics.ie Member kerdasi amaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feargach View Post
    David McWilliams enjoyed a rich diet of ridicule and scorn for his efforts to point out the facts behind the bubble nature of the housing market. His logic was flawless, but people weren't in the mood to accept any logic. So the bust happened and surprised almost everybody.
    The people who mattered didn't want to hear, as they were coining it at the time.

    Now, they are, with any luck, all bankrupt and going to get it in the neck at the next General Election.petunia
    We have got as much as we are going to get out of Europe; it is, now, time to leave!
    EUROPA CONVENTUS DELENDA EST!...Whistle out the marching tune.....27

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    Politics.ie Member Master Debater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerdasi amaq View Post
    The people who mattered didn't want to hear, as they were coining it at the time.

    Now, they are, with any luck, all bankrupt and going to get it in the neck at the next General Election.petunia
    I doubt Seanie will suffer greatly. He'll still be teeing off on the 1st tee at Greystones golf club on the day following the budget I'd wager....

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    Politics.ie Member former wesleyan's Avatar
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    It was " foreigners " who handed Albert Reynolds 8 or 9 billion to play with in the "90's. That Ireland is incapable of balancing its books, regulating its banks , putting sustainable taxes in place isn't the fault of "foreigners". I detest that term... it smacks of Shinnerism with their ourselves alone crap.

  6. #6

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    So in his absence from here, Feargach has transformed from being an a PC left wing pinko into a Third Position Xenophobe?.

    This forum never ceases to amaze me. What next, Goosebump drives about in a 1961 Lincoln Continental? Tonic is now an anarchist?
    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” - Friedrich A. Hayek

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    Politics.ie Member kerdasi amaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Debater View Post
    I doubt Seanie will suffer greatly. He'll still be teeing off on the 1st tee at Greystones golf club on the day following the budget I'd wager....
    I'd prefer it if he were teeing off at a Swiss golf course. For the same reasons that Idi Amin spent his last days in Saudi Arabia.petunia
    We have got as much as we are going to get out of Europe; it is, now, time to leave!
    EUROPA CONVENTUS DELENDA EST!...Whistle out the marching tune.....27

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzy121 View Post
    Yes, buy bonds issued by a country that's about to call in the IMF, they're as safe as houses.......
    Ouch, yet another epic fail on the logic ABC. It's amazing how people's basic arithmetic fail them when this issue comes up.

    Imagine that your prediction of an imminent IMF arrival is correct (very extreme assumption indeed, highly unlikely). What happens then? What happens is that Irish debt is restructured. We make an agreement to pay back existing bonds over a longer timescale. That's how defaults work. Investors don't get zero, they get a reduction in what they originally agreed to.

    So even if we assume that, does that mean your point makes sense?

    Nope.

    Fact is, you are going to pay no matter what. You will either pay the money freely by buying bonds and getting a positive return or you will pay the money via the taxman and get a personal return of zero.

    Yes, even if we default (far from certain), the bondholder will still receive a return of more than zero, because of the restructuring settlement that comes after a default.

    So your argument still fails. Your way is 100% guaranteed to provide a zero personal return, the better way is guaranteed to provide a positive personal return, even if you make the wildly pessimistic assumption that some form of default is certain.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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    Politics.ie Member jams odonnell's Avatar
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    if you don't want to pay money to foreigners

    then

    maybe you should have thought of that before you borrowed the money from the foreigners?

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    Quote Originally Posted by former wesleyan View Post
    It was " foreigners " who handed Albert Reynolds 8 or 9 billion to play with in the "90's. That Ireland is incapable of balancing its books, regulating its banks , putting sustainable taxes in place isn't the fault of "foreigners". I detest that term... it smacks of Shinnerism with their ourselves alone crap.
    Meh, I'm the most anti-racist poster in the whole economy folder, the only one to take a stand against that disgusting habit of referring to nations as pigs, so your argument that I'm a xenophobe is pretty ridiculous.

    The point is that every year for the next decade or so (unless we cop ourselves on and start buying Irish bonds) circa 5c out of every €1 in tax will be going out of the Irish economy and circulating elsewhere. That makes no sense. Whether you're a hyper-xenophobe like Hitler or a hyper-xenophile like Gandhi makes no odds, it still makes no sense.
    When you see the words "Mises" or "Hayek" in someone's post, just ask yourself: do I really want to ban paper money and go back to gold?

    You have to pity the kind of people who buy into conspiracy theories. I find the following to be the saddest words on the internet: "Re: connection between Bilderberg puppet lady gaga and viral outbreak in ukraine "

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