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Thread: Temporarily giving up our sovereignty is in fact a part of the solution.

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    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    Default Temporarily giving up our sovereignty is in fact a part of the solution.

    Our gombeen government and their confrčres in the dail believe that too much money is being spent on a welfare system where the recipients are already living in abject poverty; and on a health system - the experience of which is often akin to a third world health service (or worse, since the HSE has tried to turn our doctors and nurses into mere cogs in the machine). And so on.

    But no. This is not the case.

    Rather, they are spending too much money on themselves and their cronies. But it is obvious that they will continue to line their own nest and make excuses how this is 'for the good of the country'. The only way for THIS AREA OF SPENDING is to be targetted, is to temporarily relinquish our sovereignty.

    a. stop facilitating easy access to the politically favoured to lucrative over-rewarded government contracts, over-payments for land, tax breaks, and subsidies etc.

    b. stop government awarding themselves and their cronies salaries fit for kings. - Opposition parties and councillors and quangos and top civil service personnel included.

    c. withdraw government facilitated market supports, and break up the implicit cartels that make doing business, renting, going to the doctor, going shopping etc. in this country prohibitively expensive.

    d. put an end to certain privileged parts of society being entitled to live off the high rents and mortgage repayments that an 'underclass' are forced to bear.

    e. put an end to all types of 'rent-seeking' in our economy


    It's a no-brainer - IT IS OUR GOVERNMENT, THEIR CRONIES, AND THE SYSTEM THEY HAVE PROPAGATED THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Not anything else - so, we need to get rid of them until such time as we become properly capable of ruling ourselves. Being capable of ruling ourselves entails such as getting rid of the kind of dumb commercial, partisan, institutionalised narratives promoted by RTE and our national newspapers; making our workplaces more dignified and our workers in general more empowered; grinding the gombeen man into the dirt so that he can never rise again; nurturing our urban and rural environments to better reflect the more worthy facets of our national character; developing our personal capacities for civilised debate so we are better able to listen to other views, and developing an adequate sense of purpose with regard to the greater public good... We would be better able to develop our capabilities in these under another sovereign.

    Once we have re-gained these kind of capabilities and maturities, then, it might make sense to talk of ruling ourselves. Until then, relinquishing sovereignty temporarily may hold the impetus we seek to many of the reforms we so desperately need.
    “Words are animals, alive with a will of their own”.

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    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    To those who might say, well, the budget for welfare and health IS very high, and a significant component of the budget, so we need to cut them anyway... I would say, why is it high?

    A. Individual welfare payments HAVE to be high so that people can pay the high costs they are faced with in this country - the welfare budget is in effect siphoned off by (i) doctors, lawyers, landlords and other professionals, and (ii) in retail purchases the prices paid are siphoned off into paying high commercial rents and other taxes that are re-circulated as subsidies and grants to Eamon Ryan's buddies and others.

    B. The health budget has to be high to pay for (i) the higher levels of HSE management who command extraordinary salaries and in reality don't understand the entity that is the health service. - The inefficiency this lack of understanding engenders is extraordinary (ii) the consultants who comprise another cartel commanding ridiculous salaries. (iii) various Irish suppliers to the health service who are again faced with extremely high costs of doing business due to cronyism and eamon ryan and all the rest.

    So if you want to reduce the budgets for welafare and health, you need to go to the ROOT of the problem. ie. as per the OP.
    “Words are animals, alive with a will of their own”.

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    Politics.ie Member FreshStart's Avatar
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    I agree. The only thing this government has demonstrated is an ability to feather their own nests. I know I shouldn't be surprised, I survived the 1980s after all, but I am still astounded at the government's ability to place the unemployed, children and disabled on the front trenches. Jesus, even when the Titanic was sinking women and children were the first on the lifeboats. I have no respect for this government and barely any left for the opposition.

    I think we lost our sovereignty a long time ago. We're just waiting around now for an official announcement and finally we'll be able to call a spade a spade.

    Mr. Olli Rehn is due over soon to "dictate" to us the need for us to dismantle our welfare system (which despite everything was always seriously retrenched from a policy point of view). I suggest a mass protest by the plain people of Ireland to highlight our feelings to this visit. C'mon folks, let's do it. We won't regret it.

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    Finally, the main banks have been nationalised. The government will cut the welfare payments of the newly unemployed yet claim they are helpless to interfere with interest rates. They are helpless because they are not interested. They are not interested in anything that helps the citizens of Ireland get back on the feet.

    The French are protesting because they believe there is something intrinsically valuable about France (liberty, equality and fraternity). The Irish are perplexed by this and I believe that is why we aren't protesting. We have spent centuries living in fear of our masters and I am now wondering if that constant default position has damaged our psyches.

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    Politics.ie Member eoghanacht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Our gombeen government and their confrčres in the dail believe that too much money is being spent on a welfare system where the recipients are already living in abject poverty; and on a health system - the experience of which is often akin to a third world health service (or worse, since the HSE has tried to turn our doctors and nurses into mere cogs in the machine). And so on.

    But no. This is not the case.

    Rather, they are spending too much money on themselves and their cronies. But it is obvious that they will continue to line their own nest and make excuses how this is 'for the good of the country'. The only way for THIS AREA OF SPENDING is to be targetted, is to temporarily relinquish our sovereignty.

    a. stop facilitating easy access to the politically favoured to lucrative over-rewarded government contracts, over-payments for land, tax breaks, and subsidies etc.

    b. stop government awarding themselves and their cronies salaries fit for kings. - Opposition parties and councillors and quangos and top civil service personnel included.

    c. withdraw government facilitated market supports, and break up the implicit cartels that make doing business, renting, going to the doctor, going shopping etc. in this country prohibitively expensive.

    d. put an end to certain privileged parts of society being entitled to live off the high rents and mortgage repayments that an 'underclass' are forced to bear.

    e. put an end to all types of 'rent-seeking' in our economy


    It's a no-brainer - IT IS OUR GOVERNMENT, THEIR CRONIES, AND THE SYSTEM THEY HAVE PROPAGATED THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Not anything else - so, we need to get rid of them until such time as we become properly capable of ruling ourselves. Being capable of ruling ourselves entails such as getting rid of the kind of dumb commercial, partisan, institutionalised narratives promoted by RTE and our national newspapers; making our workplaces more dignified and our workers in general more empowered; grinding the gombeen man into the dirt so that he can never rise again; nurturing our urban and rural environments to better reflect the more worthy facets of our national character; developing our personal capacities for civilised debate so we are better able to listen to other views, and developing an adequate sense of purpose with regard to the greater public good... We would be better able to develop our capabilities in these under another sovereign.

    Once we have re-gained these kind of capabilities and maturities, then, it might make sense to talk of ruling ourselves. Until then, relinquishing sovereignty temporarily may hold the impetus we seek to many of the reforms we so desperately need.


    Yeah, i have been of the opinion that the IMF should come in if only to save us from ourselves.
    Britain operated death squads - ''97% of the Loyalists I interviewed were working directly for the State.'' - Nuala O'Loan. #FreeAhedTamimi

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    Politics.ie Member eoghanacht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshStart View Post
    I
    Mr. Olli Rehn is due over soon to "dictate" to us the need for us to dismantle our welfare system (which despite everything was always seriously retrenched from a policy point of view). I suggest a mass protest by the plain people of Ireland to highlight our feelings to this visit. C'mon folks, let's do it. We won't regret it.
    I have to agree with what Cael says about cutting the dole, in that i welcome it because it's not until paddy has to surrender nights and days in some cases of 'pints and having the craic' that well see any form of change.

    It's only when people's backs are to the wall and they have more to gain than lose will they step outside their own comfort zones and demand a better society.
    Britain operated death squads - ''97% of the Loyalists I interviewed were working directly for the State.'' - Nuala O'Loan. #FreeAhedTamimi

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    And another thing, why should we pay higher taxes for an even worse welfare, health, education system). We are paying for a bank bailout and government mismanagement. Let's be frank here, the bailout is the problem. You can crib all you like about spending 5 euros for every 3 euros taken in but the reality is when Ireland had low unemployment rates, the welfare system was manageable. Getting to people back to work is the solution. This should be the top of the government's agenda. Why isn't it?

    Fianna Fail took over from the Rainbow Coalition with an economy in good shape and have proceeded to destroy it.

    Lenihan is a fool but should we really let him drag us all down?

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    I'm sorry but retrenching the welfare system even further will only create destitution. I genuinely believe the problems of poverty are starting to spiral out of control. I don't think it's fair that children will have to experience this just to make a point. We've been threatened by our own government, the EU, the markets, the bondholders and I think we have to say ENOUGH. We're at the end. I wish we were fighting like the French. Imagine, fighting against the retirement age by two years. Oh joy.

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    Politics.ie Member eoghanacht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshStart View Post
    I'm sorry but retrenching the welfare system even further will only create destitution. I genuinely believe the problems of poverty are starting to spiral out of control. I don't think it's fair that children will have to experience this just to make a point. We've been threatened by our own government, the EU, the markets, the bondholders and I think we have to say ENOUGH. We're at the end. I wish we were fighting like the French. Imagine, fighting against the retirement age by two years. Oh joy.
    Fighting for the sake of it? Why?

    Unless it's a fight for a new Republic then i see no point. Rioting for what? So FG or Labour can get in and make a balls of it all over again?
    Britain operated death squads - ''97% of the Loyalists I interviewed were working directly for the State.'' - Nuala O'Loan. #FreeAhedTamimi

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    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    Fighting for the sake of it? Why?

    Unless it's a fight for a new Republic then i see no point. Rioting for what? So FG or Labour can get in and make a balls of it all over again?
    Yes, I know...what are we fighting for. But every day with FF is another in despair. I concede, I'm clutching at straws but if I lose my righteous anger, I'll just get depressed.

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