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Thread: Compulsory Catholicism for the dead

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    Politics.ie Member Old Mr Grouser's Avatar
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    Default Compulsory Catholicism for the dead

    Have you seen "Row over 'Sacred Heart' statue at Church of Ireland cemetery", a news-report in the Belfast Telegraph

    A row has erupted over the erection of a sculpture of the Sacred Heart behind a table , purportedly depicting the Last Supper, in a Church of Ireland cemetery that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves.

    It was unveiled at an ecumenical service marking the completion of a major community restoration project on the old Killenummery Graveyard near Dromahair in Leitrim.

    The Church of Ireland aren't happy but the local Catholic priest Father Vinnie Connaughton does not believe the sculpture should be removed.

    He thinks that the argument is unimportant. "I have not had one letter or phone-call of complaint about it," he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Mr Grouser View Post
    Have you seen "Row over 'Sacred Heart' statue at Church of Ireland cemetery", a news-report in the Belfast Telegraph

    A row has erupted over the erection of a sculpture of the Sacred Heart behind a table , purportedly depicting the Last Supper, in a Church of Ireland cemetery that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves.

    It was unveiled at an ecumenical service marking the completion of a major community restoration project on the old Killenummery Graveyard near Dromahair in Leitrim.

    The Church of Ireland aren't happy but the local Catholic priest Father Vinnie Connaughton does not believe the sculpture should be removed.

    He thinks that the argument is unimportant. "I have not had one letter or phone-call of complaint about it," he said.
    Good thread OMG,should make for an interesting debate,personally i think if rules and regulations have been broken then those responsible must make amends.

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    Politics.ie Member Sync's Avatar
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    If it's your property and you didn't give permission for it to go up and don't want it there, just remove it.
    I'm living in America, and in America, you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business. Now f***ing pay me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sync View Post
    If it's your property and you didn't give permission for it to go up and don't want it there, just remove it.
    whilst its not as simple as that i broadly agree, it is not in keeping with the ethos of the CoI and as its a CoI grave yard its traditions and rights should be respected

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Attitudes and remembrances in cemetaries are quite different between the traditions. Those erecting the statue should have been well aware of that - a strange situation.

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    Politics.ie Member Old Mr Grouser's Avatar
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    This is a terrible situation.

    I remember once a priest saying, and very proudly, that the Catholic Church is the only organisation in the world that does not lose members by death - Catholics here on Earth are the Church Militant, Catholics in Purgatory are the Church Suffering, and Catholics in Heaven are the Church Triumphant - and they are all Catholics.

    So there's never any opt-out. You can't opt-out in life, and similarly neither can you can't opt-out in death by way of your funeral arrangements.

    The Killenummery parish priest, Father Connaughton, is reported as saying that there are Roman Catholic people buried there and "We have to look at the majority too".

    So now a Church of Ireland cemetery is becoming an ecumenical cemetery 'that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves'.

    And how long before it will become a Catholic cemetery?
    Last edited by Old Mr Grouser; 16th October 2010 at 02:07 PM. Reason: typo

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    Politics.ie Member west'sawake's Avatar
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    As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


    A really difficult one to handle this.
    Last edited by west'sawake; 16th October 2010 at 03:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by west'sawake View Post
    As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant'swariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather useCa to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse that the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


    A really difficult one to handle this.
    I think, that since their founder was a most unholy man ,[roots matter]
    then they are just unholy hypocites.
    No group of people are more materialist and PRAGMATIC in their beliefs,
    no idealism there.

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by west'sawake View Post
    As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant'swariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather useCa to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse that the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


    A really difficult one to handle this.
    It's an old graveyard - this may mainly be a jurisdictional argument rather than one of great practical significance. The C of I apparently has control of a number of cemetaries from the past ( establishment of the Church and all that ) - this cemetary may not have been used recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by west'sawake View Post
    As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


    A really difficult one to handle this.
    You dont get the situation at all....Either that or you are trolling.

    The vast majiority of the Church of Ireland would not object to visual representation of Christ. Infact it seems that putting a statue of Christ there was agreed by everyone.

    However an image of the "sacred Heart" is distrubing to all non-Roman Catholic Christians whether Reformed, Orthodox or Non-Chalcedonian. It has no Biblical support and is contarary to both reason and tradition as laid down in early Church councils. Putting that image there was a deliberate troll designed to say "FU" to the local Church of Ireland members.

    "To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-man it is fitting to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to Humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the Man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Eerdmans, Seven Ecumenical Councils, p. 314)."

    "In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "sacred heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the Humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour’s love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another — for example, a mother to a child — he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole."

    Fr Michael Pomazansky.

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