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Thread: England's coming revolution in university funding-profs and students quaking!

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    Default England's coming revolution in university funding-profs and students quaking!

    Today's Daily Telegraph has a headline story about the main recommendations of the government commissioned Browne Report on university funding http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...hit-36000.html . Those recommendations are revolutionary:
    -Virtually all direct taxpayer funding of universities will be removed,making universities self reliant instead of wards of the state
    -To make up for the loss of funding,universities will probably have to charge tuition fees of 7,000 a year,with "elite degrees" charging 12,000
    -Mortgage style loans will be available at interest rates of 2% above inflation [cheap given the high default rates] and repayments will be at 9% of earnings above 21,000
    -To protect graduates on low incomes,only about 40% of university graduates will pay off their entire loans
    -Low and middle income households earning up to about 60,000 will qualify for government grants to help with tuition costs [mimics generous "bursaries" of US Ivy League colleges]
    -Only students meeting a minimum entry standard will qualify for loans [to be diluted by Labour!]
    -Weak universities expected to contract or close down
    -Universities will have to publish figures showing average salary and employment prospects [room for fudging eg Philosophy graduate who becomes a bond trader in his 30s and makes millions]
    -System would discourage universities from charging more than 6,000 or 7,000 annually by forcing them to return a large portion to the government [Very negative for top universities which have most to lose in direct funding]
    -What remains of central government funding is likely to be heavily targetted to medicine,science,technology and other specialist areas [a philistine attitude that spells the end of subjects of cultural interest such as Classical Studies?]

    The Association of Lecturers says the measures would "severely damage higher education in the UK..." It didn't mention the prospect that many of its members would be sacked!

    Will the Irish universities and third level colleges with their magnificent salaries and pensions be forced to face the rigours of the marketplace like the English,albeit a subsidised market demand?
    Last edited by patslatt; 12th October 2010 at 07:39 PM.

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    Politics.ie Member Squire Allworthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    Those recommendations are revolutionary:
    -Virtually all direct taxpayer funding of universities will be removed,making universities self reliant instead of wards of the state
    That sounds reasonable



    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    -Low and middle income households earning up to about 60,000 will qualify for government grants to help with tuition costs [mimics generous "bursaries" of US Ivy League colleges]
    Essential, the system must encourage the able from all backgrounds.


    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    -Only students meeting a minimum entry standard will qualify for loans [to be diluted by Labour!]
    Common sense you would think, I could go on about the children of the wealthy being educated beyond their ability and occupying places in good universities and depriving more able of opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    -Weak universities expected to contract or close down
    About time.

    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    -Universities will have to publish figures showing average salary and employment prospects [room for fudging eg Philosophy graduate who becomes a bond trader in his 30s and makes millions]
    How do they produce anything meaningful? It is open to all sorts of distortions. Money they earn through dent of labour or money they earn through wealth? Apart from that whilst eventual earnings is a consideration for most this sort of emphasis is at best misguided.

    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt View Post
    -What remains of central government funding is likely to be heavily targetted to medicine,science,technology and other specialist areas [a philistine attitude that spells the end of subjects of cultural interest such as Classical Studies?]
    Why finance subjects that are basically hobbies?


    I have heard people describe the current education and qualification regime as a qualification bubble. The more qualifications, in circulation the less any of them are worth. That of course is before we consider pointless and poorly devised courses.

    The devil in this will be in the detail. Personally I believe there is an over emphasis in University education and that many who go there would perhaps be better suited elsewhere?

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    Not bad reforms. Gets rid of a lot of bloody art students.

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    Politics.ie Member LeDroit's Avatar
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    I so envy the UK population at present. They have a radical and courageous coalition govt slaughtering sacred cows day after day. And we have FF/Greens.
    "A govt big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" Thomas Jefferson

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    Politics.ie Member Chrisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goban Saor View Post
    Not bad reforms. Gets rid of a lot of bloody art students.
    Yeah, what we need are more people with BComms, like yer man that did so well with that oul bank there; Anglo was it called...?

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    Politics.ie Member j26's Avatar
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    And so continues Englands slide down the toilet...

    In 20 years investors will weigh up the quality of the education system, and they won't be impressed.

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    Politics.ie Member Chrisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j26 View Post
    And so continues Englands slide down the toilet...

    In 20 years investors will weigh up the quality of the education system, and they won't be impressed.
    Yeah, putting in more money per student is going to destroy it....

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    People who spew crap such as "bloody arts students" are ignorant buffoons who don't know the difference between a qualification and an education. Usually it's because they don't understand the collegiate nature of university life as they've never experienced it themselves and are slightly bitter. Read Cardinal Newman's "Idea of a University".

    Oxford and Cambridge won't be affected by this one bit. Trinity College, Cambridge for example has a trust fund of about 1bn. They don't spend money on anything unless they have a trust to back it up. E.g. a professor's salary of 100k per annum needs a trust of ~5m - the 100k can be taken out each year and the trust still maintains itself against inflation. Of course the smart thing to do is to have a 6m trust that grows over time. Which is what Oxbridge do.

    Education for the masses has failed. Why should taxpayers pay for it? The meaning of the word "university" has utterly changed. For the worse IMO.

    Here in Ireland, the last bastions of proper university life include Trinity College, the Royal University (now UCD - I use Royal "University" because that was a proper university given the fullest sense of the word, UCC and Maynooth (which both still maintain remnants of the collegiate nature of proper universities).

    UL, DCU, and all the ITs dotted evenly around the country are full of deluded people who live in the future and 3rd rate "lecturers" who haven't written a quality research paper in years and some, who have never written a paper in their lives. The pensions and tea breaks are great though.

    Bill Gates has some very interesting stuff to say on universities in the modern world. In particular, the growth of e-learning and continual professional development facilitated by the internet. Organisations like the Open University are thriving and I have a lot of time for the work that they do.

    Anyway, the Labour policy of the 1990s has failed. Nobody will be willing to pay €5k to €10k a year for a 3rd rate education in a local IT which will result in their inevitable decline and that, for everyone, will be a good thing.

    Nothing like a good apprenticeship in an expanding organisation when you're 18. I've seen people joining the bank at 18 ending up on the trading room floor on full salary + commission at 22, alongside B€$$ and BComm entitlement graduates working for €20k on "graduate programs".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeDroit View Post
    I so envy the UK population at present. They have a radical and courageous coalition govt slaughtering sacred cows day after day. And we have FF/Greens.
    darn interesting stance on the universities alright.

    but there is an ideological side to all of this - the conservatives fully understand that the universities are hotbeds of radical leftism and more dangerously, radical Islamism (cos the far-left are in bed with the Jihadist nutjobs)

    and thats being supported by the taxpayer. its not in the conservative party's interest to have this farce go on any more. and the conservatives also believe it's not in the countries interest either.

    now the universities will feel the full brunt of market forces, and will actually have to grow up and earn an living. like the rest of the population.

    i for one think its a smart move - american universities are all private and they arent short of a bob or two , and have been major engines of growth in the U.S. economy e.g. Stanford or MIT - it's obvious that the conservatives want to copy this U.S. model. So, its both for ideological AND economic reasons.

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    Politics.ie Member Chrisco's Avatar
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    Ever hear of Penn State? University of California? Michigan etc etc etc etc

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