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Thread: Can the Orange state be reformed? Can Ulster Unionism be normalized?

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    Default Can the Orange state be reformed? Can Ulster Unionism be normalized?

    There has been more than enough ranting in the media about evil dissidents.

    What about Unionist culture which gets off on other people being condemned to hell?

    If the Staters and Brits geniunely want a lasting peace in the six counties should they not address the sickness within Unionist culture or is that out of bounds?

    And what is the bets that this thread gets withdrawn as "sectarian" by someone who couldnt care less about the north?

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    Unionism is an evil mindset, because it is a racist mindset. It is based on the idea that the colonist is a real human being, and the conquered native is sub human (otherwise the colonist would feel guilt at invading the natives land and taking it from him.) The colonist considers it a horrific injustice that he should have to submit to majority native rule. He would be as well pleased to be ruled by monkeys. This was the attitude of the Pied Noirs in Algeria and of the White South Africans. Neither of which would ever have given in to majority rule if they had had a metropolitan power willing to endlessly supply them with guns, money and troops. Ulster Unionism is a racist fantasy, that is being encouraged by England and the dopey free staters. However, there is hope for the Unionists - just as there was hope for the Pied Noirs and the Whites in South Africa. That hope is a United Ireland, where they will be free to drop this evil mindset.

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    Politics.ie Member Ifor Bach's Avatar
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    Can the likes of you two ever be 'normalised':



    Zoo thread.

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    Above views say so much about these two posters ,a narrow perspective that reveals their own hatred and self loathing .Pyschological assstance required .

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    No i don't think it can be reformed. Orangeism isn't a fleeting movement or a new thing, it has become solidly entrenched. It is basically the culture they made/were granted for themselves when they came here, their historiography in Ireland begins with Orangeism.. Before it they had no separate identity here except as displaced non-Gael Protestants, it gave them a cultural and political structure (and even a kind of mythology in the British Israelite aspects) and they will cling on to it at all costs. It was a bestowal upon them by the British elite landowning class, a covenant between lord and peasant. The last chance of something else happening to allow the healing and rejuvenation of a United Ireland (United internally as well as politically - there are more divisions than the one on the map) was over 200 years ago. When they chose Orangeism they allied themselves to the British elites perched here (an unusual alliance between lord and peasant defined by what they were not) instead of to their fellow Irishmen and that is where they remain today.

    They will also always attract fondness and support from conservatives everywhere, especially in Britain and in Dublin. Michael McDowell has spoken of his affection for the organisation and his wish that the Republic explore it, B Ahern wanted the Love Ulster to march a long stretch of Dublin's capital when the organisation itself only wanted a small march, i believe this was the innate conservatism of both men speaking... But it shows that the movement is not even just contained in the North but has numerous admirers in powerful positions in the Republic too. An extreme right wing Catholic poster named Faustius a few days ago spoke of his admiration for the Orange Order to give an example of how Catholic Unionists and arch conservatives would themselves love to be allowed to embrace it. I see it as being similiar to Zionism (not just the coloniser aspect) in that it is a system which despite it's sharp edges and political incorrectness (although perhaps being anti-Catholic is fully compatible with being PC - certainly seems so reading the Guardian sometimes...) broadly favored by the elites and granted special affection by them. One possibility however is that it might become surpassed by a new Islamophobic system, like the OO the likes of the EDL defines itself on what it is against, the EDL is the 21st Century incarnation of what the OO represents, to all intents and purposes both the EDL and the OO are the same, both invented by elites, both defined by their opposition to a racial or religious group, both like to march a lot, both claiming the enlightenment and some notion of 'freedom' from an absolutist tyranny (possibly only one of their imaginations) as their source of inspiration.

    In some ways nationalists envy it because of the broad-spanning social cohesion in it, it powerfully unites all sections of their community - rich and poor, left and right... whereas Irish nationalism has been under frequent attack from the rich and the 'intelligentsia' here for as long as they feel it is safe to attack it... In truth it is the kind of Union between all layers of society that nationalist Ireland has not seen since the 17thC itself, nationalism in Ireland was usually the movement of one socio-economic class (usually the poorer majority (by virtue of the legacy of the elites being loyalist and unionist)). The liberal intelligentsia in the Republic don't even seem to see Orangeism, much less frame it for criticism, ditto for the island of Britain. The conservative media sometimes cannot stop the gushing of admiration they feel for it, that the ordinary people do not share their feelings is probably a source of continuing frustration, a section of the Reboot Unionism Ver 3.0 program in the works that will not come online for them (yet).

    Oh and Bach, it 'should' be against the rules to attempt to derail a thread by posting stupid childish ad-hominem images as a 'response'.

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Orange state ? What a tired old cliché. Sloganeering worthy of Goebbels. No surprise from Ulrike.

    Nothing wrong with unionism per se any more than there is anything wrong with democratic nationalism or democratic republicanism - "dissident" republicans need to learn their place. Then the rest of the people of NI can get on with their lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cael View Post
    Unionism is an evil mindset, because it is a racist mindset. It is based on the idea that the colonist is a real human being, and the conquered native is sub human (otherwise the colonist would feel guilt at invading the natives land and taking it from him.) The colonist considers it a horrific injustice that he should have to submit to majority native rule. He would be as well pleased to be ruled by monkeys. This was the attitude of the Pied Noirs in Algeria and of the White South Africans. Neither of which would ever have given in to majority rule if they had had a metropolitan power willing to endlessly supply them with guns, money and troops. Ulster Unionism is a racist fantasy, that is being encouraged by England and the dopey free staters. However, there is hope for the Unionists - just as there was hope for the Pied Noirs and the Whites in South Africa. That hope is a United Ireland, where they will be free to drop this evil mindset.
    Unionism is not colonism.

    Unionism is the idea that people of different nationalities can work together for the common good. That we have more similiarities than we have differences in the world.

    Maybe your confusing Ulster nationalism with unionism, an understandable but not inexcusable mistake.

    And nationalism cannot be evil? BNP? Nazis? The Balkans? All nationalism as ever done is to divide people and subjectify minorities in this world. Even murder them.
    Love me. Cherish me. I'm a unionist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStars View Post
    What about Unionist culture which gets off on other people being condemned to hell?
    You do realise that quite alot of us are not religious? If you are gonna hate us SS at least understand us first .
    Love me. Cherish me. I'm a unionist.

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    Anyway on topic of course NI can be reformed, it is reforming as we speak. NI will no longer be or should be a protestant country for a protestant people. Catholics are no longer discriminated against in housing and jobs. We are not fully there to a modern Western European country but we are getting there.
    Love me. Cherish me. I'm a unionist.

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Nationalism is indeed the problem Garza - as seen in the history of the 20th century.

    Not Irish Nationalism ?

    The destructiveness of Irish nationalism became more evident in the twentieth century.
    Donnchadh Ó Corráin

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