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Thread: What's the protocol on losing a Budget vote ?

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Default What's the protocol on losing a Budget vote ?

    There's a serious risk that this government may go down to the wire on a budget.

    Thus what is the protocol on losing the vote on a money bill ? I know it means the government is deemed sunk... but just when ? Is it up to the President to decide, or is a full Dáil vote of no confidence needed ?

    Could they vote in another budget 24 hours later ?

    I ask this as I see a likely scenario:

    1. - budget vote going down to the wire
    2. - FF forced to/agreeing on election
    3. - FG aiding the passage of a budget, with election straight after


    because the alternate scenario

    1. - budget vote going down to the wire
    2. - government falling without any budget
    3. - thus no budget until February


    would be a horrible mess

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    GDPR Deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post
    There's a serious risk that this government may go down to the wire on a budget.

    Thus what is the protocol on losing the vote on a money bill ? I know it means the government is deemed sunk... but just when ? Is it up to the President to decide, or is a full Dáil vote of no confidence needed ?

    Could they vote in another budget 24 hours later ?

    I ask this as I see a likely scenario:

    1. - budget vote going down to the wire
    2. - FF forced to/agreeing on election
    3. - FG aiding the passage of a budget, with election straight after


    because the alternate scenario

    1. - budget vote going down to the wire
    2. - government falling without any budget
    3. - thus no budget until February


    would be a horrible mess

    cYp
    FG & J Bruton would be your best bet for information there, been there, done that.

    You can't beat experience.

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    Politics.ie Member corelli's Avatar
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    There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
    "......... we must sometimes listen to those who, consumed with zeal, have scant judgment or balance. To such ones the modern world is nothing but betrayal and ruin.........We feel bound to disagree with these prophets of doom who are forever forecasting calamity -- as though the world's end were imminent."

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    Politics.ie Member ballot stuffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corelli View Post
    There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
    I was under the impression a failed budget vote or loss of supply situation meant the Taoiseach must seek a dissolution of the Dail?
    Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corelli View Post
    There is no difference as between losing a vote on a money bill and on any other. The Constitution only says that the President may refuse a dissolution of the Dail to a Taoiseach who does not retain the confidence of the Dail, ie after loosing a confidence motion.
    All the Bunreacht references to "money bills" seem to be about the Seanad having to play nice (articles 20-26) - and that the President can't refuse it:
    BUNREACHT NA hIREANN

    Though I do recall something - perhaps in statute - about the government not being meant to lose a money bill ... and there was hoopla this year when they nearly did...

    Thsi Revenue doc says
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s...-13.pdf&rct=j&
    The Interpretation Act 2005 governs all legislation by the Oireachtas and is an essential reference text at the drafting stage of the Finance Bill process.
    ...
    The Opposition may seek to amend or simply oppose a Financial Resolution and may call for a division or vote. The defeat of a Budget day Financial Resolution effectively represents a vote of no confidence in the Government and would normally result in the Taoiseach requesting the President to dissolve the Dáil and the calling of a general election.
    cYp
    Last edited by cyberianpan; 5th October 2010 at 11:11 PM.
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    Politics.ie Member kerdasi amaq's Avatar
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    I'd imagine that the government would call a "vote of confidence" if they were defeated on a budget vote. Lose that, then it's a trip to the Arás.
    We have got as much as we are going to get out of Europe; it is, now, time to leave!
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    Politics.ie Member Chrisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post

    the alternate scenario

    1. - budget vote going down to the wire
    2. - government falling without any budget
    3. - thus no budget until February


    would be a horrible mess

    cYp
    That is why we need an election first.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonic View Post
    FG & J Bruton would be your best bet for information there, been there, done that.

    You can't beat experience.
    IIRC that was the Finance Bill (which, inter alia, gives legislative effect to the Budget speech, but generally takes about 3 months to pass).

    As I understand it, a defeat on the Budget would result in the fall of the govt, in the same way as a vote of no confidence. Taoiseach would be required to go to the Aras seeking a dissolution of the Dail, she would either accept, or (somewhat more unlikely) ask another TD to try to form a new Govt.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post

    Though I do recall something - perhaps in statute - about the government not being meant to lose a money bill ... and there was hoopla this year when they nearly did...

    cYp
    Govt denied that it was a money bill (it wa a technical point that was never tested) - had GLee not resigned, the opposition would have been able to test that assertion.... or if Alex White had won the bye-election....

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    Politics.ie Member rockofcashel's Avatar
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    I am not sure what the "de jure" position is, but the "de facto position" is simple. If you lose a "money" bill i.e. you cannot pass a budget, then you stand down and dissolve the Dail. The most basic function of Government is revenue raising. If it does not have the confidence of the House to raise revenue, it stands down.

    I personally think this is where the Government will fall. I cannot see them passing a budget, given the level of cuts likely. And, I also think it'll be FF rebels minding their seats who will eventually pull the plug.
    1,197 people agree with me.. how many agree with you ?

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