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Thread: "Hold tight Europe,Turkey is coming to save you"

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    Default "Hold tight Europe,Turkey is coming to save you"

    Can the EU get past its islamophobia before the Turks pull the pin themselves?
    EUobserver / Economic realism will ease anti-Turkish feeling, Joschka Fischer says

    "I am confident in the democratisation and economic prosperity of my country. To be honest, I don't have so much confidence in your economic prosperity. We are not coming with additional burdens to the EU, we are coming to take burdens from Europe. My new motto is: 'Hold on tight Europe, Turkey is coming to save you.'"

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    We come in peace!!

    Fzzztttt.. argh!

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsXnK0ouTL8&feature=related]YouTube - Hippies cause intergalactic war[/ame]
    ..the Irish nation can become other than white, by privileging the voices of the racialised and subverting state immigration but also integration policies. Ronit Lentin

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    Fischer is the worst kind of materialist reductionist who doesn't understand that to many people some things are more important than money.

    Fischer's thinking goes something like this: the German people are declining in terms of population numbers which will eventually lead to economic decline therefore it is imperative to replace domestic economic units (Germans) with imported economic units (Turks).

    What about the fact that the Germans are an historic people with their own language, culture and religion and the Turks who are being brought in to supplement them demographically have a different language, customs, religion etc.? Oh this won't matter, once people realise that we need the money.

    The effect of right-liberalism/neo-liberalism, shorn of any particularist considerations, is to replace specific peoples with symbolic abstractions--to take away their humanity. But the German people are not going to forget themselves quite as easily as this man.

    It is also thought in this vein that as long as the state is given a large amount of control over people's lives it can mould the citizenry to its needs--German or Turkish. Aside fromt the fact that instilling what to think in people is not an essential function of government, will this actually work? No, German (re-)education cannot seriously compete against Friday prayers at the local mosque.
    Last edited by Sean O'Brian; 3rd October 2010 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean O'Brian View Post
    Fischer is the worst kind of materialist reductionist who doesn't understand that to many people some things are more important than money.

    Fischer's thinking goes something like this: the German people are declining in terms of population numbers which will eventually lead to economic decline therefore it is imperative to replace domestic economic units (Germans) with imported economic units (Turks).

    What about the fact that the Germans are an historic people with their own language, culture and religion and the Turks who are being brought in to supplement them demographically have a different language, customs, religion etc.? Oh this won't matter, once people realise that we need the money.

    The effect of right-liberalism/neo-liberalism, shorn of any particularist considerations, is to replace specific peoples with symbolic abstractions--to take away their humanity. But the German people are not going to forget themselves quite as easily as this man.

    It is also thought in this vain that as long as the state is given a large amount of control over people's lives it can mould the citizenry to its needs--German or Turkish. Aside fromt the fact that instilling what to think in people is not an essential function of government, will this actually work? No, German (re-)education cannot seriously compete against Friday prayers at the local mosque.
    I thought it is more to do with an aging population rather than a declining one.

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    Absolute claptrap by both the Fischer (" a growing realisation that Europe needs to replenish its aging workforce is already altering perceptions and that it is Turkey") What rubbish...and Bagis.("we are coming to take burdens from Europe") more like to rip they eye out of our heads.. Obnoxious diplomacy at its worst.. Regardless of the view of Islam Turkey has nothing to offer the EU.. there are more pressing needs than to suck up to this flawed power.

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    I thought it is more to do with an aging population rather than a declining one.
    The two things are related. Every generation gets old but this generation of Germans has no one to take up the slack from them due to the decline in younger people being born and brought up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean O'Brian View Post
    The two things are related. Every generation gets old but this generation of Germans has no one to take up the slack from them due to the decline in younger people being born and brought up.
    So why is immigration not a sensible solution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by whataday View Post
    Absolute claptrap by both the Fischer (" a growing realisation that Europe needs to replenish its aging workforce is already altering perceptions and that it is Turkey") What rubbish...and Bagis.("we are coming to take burdens from Europe") more like to rip they eye out of our heads.. Obnoxious diplomacy at its worst.. Regardless of the view of Islam Turkey has nothing to offer the EU.. there are more pressing needs than to suck up to this flawed power.
    I think it's a bit naive to say Turkey has nothing to offer.(I am sure the UK,for example, is'nt supporting their membership just to be nice)

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    So why is immigration not a sensible solution?
    First of all because it fails to address what is a structural defect: why are people not having children? That is not normal. Historically it has been a sign of the decline of civillisation. There is Plubius's (I think? possibly Livy's) description of Athens at the time of the Roman conquest where he says that the Greeks had given up child-rearing in order to indulge themselves in pleasures.

    Liberalism (as well as purely materialist factors like birth control) have released people from traditional family obligations and contributed to natal decline. Now, perhaps I am wrong and this isn't the reason. There must be a reason, and a solution. Otherwise what's to stop the next generation of Germans from declining also? So my first objection is that Fischer is avoiding the root of the problem which will not go away soon. His solution is a non-solution.

    Now as to your question: why is immigration is not a sensible solution? It is an economic solution in purely abstract terms but it is not sensible because if Germans are replaced by Turks what will happen is that Germany as it is now constiuted will cease to exist, or at least split-up in war and partition. This is because different peoples, and we're talking here about vastly different peoples - European Christians (or former Christians) and Turkish Muslims - are not identikit replacements for one another. They have very real differences.

    The differences between Scots-Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics are much less yet we have to be separated by a border on the same island. In Northern Ireland the two peoples work together in the same office buildings - they are truly Fischer's interchangable economic units. So why not replace all Irish Catholics with Scots-Irish/Anglo-Scot planters, if there's no difference? Because it would be objectionable in itself. Particular peoples have a right to exist, and citizenship in a state is only one aspect of their existence and not the defining aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    Can the EU get past its islamophobia before the Turks pull the pin themselves?
    EUobserver / Economic realism will ease anti-Turkish feeling, Joschka Fischer says

    "I am confident in the democratisation and economic prosperity of my country. To be honest, I don't have so much confidence in your economic prosperity. We are not coming with additional burdens to the EU, we are coming to take burdens from Europe. My new motto is: 'Hold on tight Europe, Turkey is coming to save you.'"
    Usual drivel promoting endless enlargement for materialist purposes. Fischer and the rest of the so-called Europhiles seem to be mouthpieces for the corporate vested interests who benefit from mass expansion of the EU.

    Article is completely biased and pro-expansionist - note the reference to Turkey having "Europe's large Muslim and Roma populations". Apart from a small area, geographically Turkey is not even in Europe and no waffle about past Hellenic civilisations on Turkish soil, please. It is part of Asia Minor. We need more immigrants, be they Turkish or Kurdish Muslims or otherwise, like we need a hole in the head.

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