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Thread: The Guardian calls De Valera pro-German

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    Politics.ie Member borntorum's Avatar
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    Default The Guardian calls De Valera pro-German

    Anyone who has read the Guardian or visited its website website will know that it is indulging in an astonishing amount of anti Catholic rhetoric in connection with the state visit of Pope Benedict. I have been genuinely shocked at the degree of intolerance and group-think amongst much of the British liberal intelligentsia, egged on by the Guardian in particular.

    Anyway, the Pope's visit has so far gone off much more successfully than predicted by the Guardian, and this perhaps explains a particularly spiteful and snarly editorial in today's paper. Amongst the invective, it drops this outrageous clanger:

    However, Pope Benedict went on to say exactly that, lambasting atheist extremism and aggressive secularism, and ruing the damage the exclusion of God had done to public life in the last century. This, too, had to be parsed. It turned out that he was talking about the Nazis, not Richard Dawkins – although there were problems with that thesis too. What about pro-German De Valera, or Spain, Croatia and Slovakia, where the Catholic church was pro-Nazi?
    You might expect to see this sort of gross distortion of Ireland's role in WW2 amongst the more right-wing elements of the Telegraph or the Mail, but the Guardian generally has a decent understanding of recent Irish history for a British publication. Can this mistake by dismissed as the result of some over-excited rhetoric, or does it represent what the British genuinely believe about De Valera in WW2?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rbulent-priest
    Last edited by borntorum; 18th September 2010 at 05:35 PM.

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    Politics.ie Member The OD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntorum View Post
    Anyone who has read the Guardian or visited its website website will know that it is indulging in an astonishing amount of anti Catholic rhetoric in connection with the state visit of Pope Benedict. I have been genuinely shocked at the degree of intolerance and group-think amongst much of the British liberal intelligentsia, egged on by the Guardian in particular.

    Anyway, the Pope's visit has so far gone off much more successfully than predicted by the Guardian, and this perhaps explains a particularly spiteful and snarly editorial in today's paper. Amongst the invective, it drops this outrageous clanger:

    However, Pope Benedict went on to say exactly that, lambasting atheist extremism and aggressive secularism, and ruing the damage the exclusion of God had done to public life in the last century. This, too, had to be parsed. It turned out that he was talking about the Nazis, not Richard Dawkins – although there were problems with that thesis too. What about pro-German De Valera, or Spain, Croatia and Slovakia, where the Catholic church was pro-Nazi?
    You might expect to see this sort of gross distortion of Ireland's role in WW2 amongst the more right-wing elements of the Telegraph or the Mail, but the Guardian generally has a decent understanding of recent Irish history for a British publication. Can this mistake by dismissed as the result of some over-excited rhetoric, or does it represent what the British genuinely believe about De Valera in WW2?
    He says pro-German, not pro Nazi. I rarely find myself defending Dev, but the text clearly states pro-German and not pro-Nazi to the extent that he makes mention of the decidely the Pro-Nazi sympathies of the Churches of the aforementioned countries?

    I doubt anyone with a lick of sense would believe Dev, even at his worse to be pro-Nazi or even close. Sadly however, there would be many in the UK who would believe this, they are, however, massively outnumbered by those who are unaware or totally indifferent to this.
    Let's all raise a glass of frog milk to the ancient festival of Fargaltide!

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    Let's not forget that de Valera signed the book of condolences for Hitler. There can be no doubt that Dev would have known from diplomatic reports that the Allies had been freeing concentration and death camps since February 1945 and he woudl certainly have had an inkling of the conditions in them. Signing the book of condolances with that knowledge - I don't blame the Guardian for calling Dev pro-German.

    I note that the extract says he was pro-German by the way, not pro-Nazi. Big difference.

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    Thread title is incorrect. Nowhere does the article say de Valera was pro-Nazi.
    "So how are things at the Campaign for the Freedom of Information, by the way?" "Sorry, I can't talk about that"

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    Politics.ie Member Sync's Avatar
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    Up to you BornToRum, do you want the thread retitled or zooed? I'm easy.
    I'm living in America, and in America, you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business. Now f***ing pay me.

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    Politics.ie Member borntorum's Avatar
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    Supporting the Germans in the second world war would involve being pro-Nazi, would it not? I didn't write "pro-German" because I thought that, without the context of the paragraph in which the allegation appeared, it might not be clear what the Guardian was referring to.

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    Politics.ie Member borntorum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sync View Post
    Up to you BornToRum, do you want the thread retitled or zooed? I'm easy.
    If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal

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    Calling him pro-German in the context of WW2, in a sentence which also contains the word Nazi, is pretty akin to calling him Pro-Nazi. Not a fan of Dev in the slightest, but this is just a poor attempt from the Guardian. The author of the piece must not have researched particularly hard and found some gem about Dev signing the books of condolences for Hitler. Ignoring of course the considerable help that the Irish authorities discreetly gave Britain during the war.

    Not surprising though. I would buy the Guardian quite regularly, but increasingly less so as it is consistently becoming more shrill than substance, unfortunately.

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    Politics.ie Member The OD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntorum View Post
    If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal
    What about this pro-German, anti-Nazi German who was directly involved in WWII?

    Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg





    Seemed like a good egg all round.
    Let's all raise a glass of frog milk to the ancient festival of Fargaltide!

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    Politics.ie Member Interista's Avatar
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    When posting a thread on the subject of a particular newspaper article, it's a good idea to post a link to it.

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