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Thread: Question about Vatican Status

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Default Question about Vatican Status

    Vatican accused of being 'rogue state' over abuse inaction

    THE VATICAN should be treated as “a rogue state” by the world until it deals properly with child sexual abuse by priests, argues Geoffrey Robertson, a United Nations judge and veteran British human rights lawyer.
    and

    Now, in a new book, he argues the Vatican and Pope Benedict are hiding behind a weak claim to statehood to dodge responsibility for failing to act against thousands of priests worldwide who have abused children.
    and

    The Catholic Church must change, or risk losing its right under international law to be treated as a state – even if its claim to statehood was not fully accepted by the United Nations.
    It's ridiculous that these people have a seat in the UN .

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    Moderator Munnkeyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    It's ridiculous that these people have a seat in the UN .
    Imagine if any other state in the world ran a world wide paedophile ring and subsequent cover up.

    Dublin Archidiocese
    From the Murphy report.
    The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State". The 720-page report said that it has "no doubt that clerical child sexual abuse was covered up" from January 1975 to May 2004.
    Manchester New Hampshire USA.
    Mgr. Odore Joseph Gendron has been criticized for his management of sexual abuse cases among the clergy. He assigned Rev. Paul Aube to a Rochester parish and put him in charge of a youth program even though Aube had confessed to molesting a minor and requested to be kept away from children. Aube allegedly abused at least seven minors at Rochester.
    Gendron was accused of destroying documents detailing child sexual abuse by Revs. Philip Petit and Gordon MacRae during the 1980s

    Straight from Wikipedia. Catholic Sexual Abuse cases in Europe.
    • 1 Austria
      • 1.1 Archdiocese of Vienna
        • 1.1.1 Diocese of Sankt Pölten
    • 2 Belgium
      • 2.1 Archdiocese of Mechelen-Brussels
        • 2.1.1 Diocese of Antwerp
        • 2.1.2 Diocese of Bruges
        • 2.1.3 Diocese of Ghent
        • 2.1.4 Diocese of Hasselt
        • 2.1.5 Diocese of Liège
        • 2.1.6 Diocese of Namur
        • 2.1.7 Diocese of Tournai
      • 2.2 Salesians
    • 3 Croatia
      • 3.1 Archdiocese of Zagreb
      • 3.2 Archdiocese of Rijeka
    • 4 Czech Republic
      • 4.1 Archdiocese of Olomouc
    • 5 Denmark
      • 5.1 Diocese of Copenhagen
    • 6 France
      • 6.1 Archdiocese of Paris
        • 6.1.1 Diocese of Meaux
      • 6.2 Archdiocese of Rouen
        • 6.2.1 Diocese of Evreux
      • 6.3 Archdiocese of Besançon
    • 7 Germany
      • 7.1 Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
      • 7.2 Diocese of Regensburg
      • 7.3 Archdiocese of Berlin
        • 7.3.1 Canisius-Kolleg Berlin
      • 7.4 Archdiocese of Freiburg
        • 7.4.1 Kolleg Sankt Blasien
    • 8 Great Britain
      • 8.1 Archdiocese of Southwark
        • 8.1.1 Diocese of Arundel and Brighton
        • 8.1.2 Diocese of Plymouth
      • 8.2 Archdiocese of Cardiff
      • 8.3 Benedictines
      • 8.4 Kiltegan Fathers
    • 9 Ireland
      • 9.1 Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly
        • 9.1.1 Diocese of Cloyne
        • 9.1.2 Diocese of Limerick
      • 9.2 Archdiocese of Dublin
        • 9.2.1 Diocese of Ferns
      • 9.3 Archdiocese of Tuam
      • 9.4 Archdiocese of Armagh
        • 9.4.1 Diocese of Raphoe
    • 10 Italy
      • 10.1 Archdiocese of Trento
        • 10.1.1 Diocese of Bolzano-Brixen
      • 10.2 Archdiocese of Venice
        • 10.2.1 Diocese of Verona
    • 11 Malta
      • 11.1 Archdiocese of Malta
    • 12 Netherlands
      • 12.1 Archdiocese of Utrecht
        • 12.1.1 Diocese of Den Bosch
        • 12.1.2 Diocese of Roermond
        • 12.1.3 Diocese of Rotterdam
      • 12.2 Salesians
    • 13 Norway
      • 13.1 Territorial Prelature of Trondheim
    • 14 Poland
      • 14.1 Archdiocese of Poznan
      • 14.2 Archdiocese of Warsaw
        • 14.2.1 Diocese of Plock
    • 15 Slovenia
      • 15.1 Archdiocese of Ljubljana
    • 16 Spain
      • 16.1 Society of Jesus
    • 17 Sweden
      • 17.1 Diocese of Stockholm
    1. What would happen to other states that operated in such a fashion?
    2. Would their Ambassador(Papal Nuncio) be turfed out?
    3. Would they be subject to sanctions?
    Flash a-ah - King of the impossible

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    Politics.ie Member Q-Tours's Avatar
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    Agreed. I tend to bang on about this a bit, so forgive me....

    As far as I can tell, it all goes back to the Papal States, and possibly even to the forgery known as the Donatio Constantini, which purported to show that the temporal rights (in the Western Empire, at least) of the Roman emperor had been vested in the Bishop of Rome. Then, when Italian unification reduced the Pope to the Vatican, Pius IX locked himself up in an almighty snit and refused to recognise the state or even set foot in it. Having started out as a pretty liberal sort of chap, the events of 1848 and reunification (not to mention Victor Immannuel's less than conciliatory attitude) turned him into a complete reactionary. You can get the flavour of the man from his Syllabus of Errors, a rant against any sort of thinking that did not acknowledge papal authority over everything from salvation to the correct way to tie shoelaces.

    The stand-off wasn't resolved until that nice Mr Mussolini signed the Lateran Accords in 1929. That gave the Vatican the status of a state. This had the collateral benefit of preventing the Vatican from 'taking sides' in any war. How convenient!) Then things really took off, with concordats with good Catholic boyslike Hitler and Salazar, and a load of other places.

    A big problem with these concordats is that they are treaties in international law, and so can't be altered unlaterally. So you've got provisions that, typically, bind the state to give favourable tax status or even civil immunities to Catholic clergy, and that can (e.g. in Poland) override any domestic law changing that which the democratically elected government might choose to pass. (It wouldn't work that way here, but it has cropped up in a few places.) In Germany it gives special status to Canon Law such that its 'binding' nature can and sometime must be enforced by the civil courts, even to the detriment of political or employment rights.

    Statehood also gives the Vatican the benefit of sovereign immunity. That is a principle of international law that holds that a state can't be sued in the domestic courts of a foreign country. In the USA this was a live issue just this summer. More relevantly to us here, it would prevent a court ordering production of records of religious order who sent them to Rome "for safe-keeping".

    The Pope's local rep, and the bishops' Chief Doctrinal Commissar, is the Papal Nuncio. In an almighty piece of sucking-up, he was given the No. 2 House in the Phoenix Park and was decreed to be ex officio to doyen of the diplomatic corps. (In civilised countries, that job is usually rotated to whichever ambassador is the longest serving.) And, of course, it gives him the benefit of diplomatic immunity. We got a dose of that with the Ryan Commission when he refused to acknowledge their request for documents, saying that it should have been routed through Foreign Affairs! (Thought experiment: imagine if the head office of Weight Watchers was based here and received a request from a judge to produce some papers or other, but they declined saying that the request wasn't delivered by the right messenger)

    I would dearly love to see the Vatican lose its recognition as a state, and I can see no reason whatsoever why it should keep it.

    I have yet to hear a good argument in favour of recognition.

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    Politics.ie Member The OD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    It's ridiculous that these people have a seat in the UN .
    It's also ridiculous that vast numbers of those who facilitated, co-ordinated and carried out child sexual slavery on a vast scale are not only walking around free, but are actually lauded by people who were obviously born deprived of human empathy.
    Let's all raise a glass of frog milk to the ancient festival of Fargaltide!

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    Politics.ie Member White Horse's Avatar
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    THE VATICAN should be treated as “a rogue state” by the world until it deals properly with child sexual abuse by priests, argues Geoffrey Robertson, a United Nations judge and veteran British human rights lawyer.
    Can someone point out similar calls made by Robertson regarding China, India, the US, and all other countries alleged to be violating human rights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by White Horse View Post
    Can someone point out similar calls made by Robertson regarding China, India, the US, and all other countries alleged to be violating human rights?
    The Vatican is using its diplomatic immunity to shield itself from taking responsibility for the global conspiracy and cover-up of paedophilia committed by its employees and diplomats against children who were citizens of other countries in those countries.

    So it is a different case to those states who abuse human rights within their own borders.

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    Politics.ie Member Q-Tours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Horse View Post
    Can someone point out similar calls made by Robertson regarding China, India, the US, and all other countries alleged to be violating human rights?
    Why? Is that a necessary precondition? Are there any other states you'd like to mention as well?

    Or do you think that the Fairy Kingdom is simply above criticism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by White Horse View Post
    Can someone point out similar calls made by Robertson regarding China, India, the US, and all other countries alleged to be violating human rights?
    That invalidates his claims does it?

    Must he address every international abuse, before addressing the Catholic Church? Should all murders be solved before a robbery is prosecuted?

    Worst... whataboutery... ever.

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    Politics.ie Member White Horse's Avatar
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    It doesn't take a lot for anti-Catholicism and aniti-papacy to rear it's head in England. Robertson may be Australian but his form of Protestantism is fatally prejudiced aagainst Catholicism.

    If he was consistent in his treatment of all alleged human rights abuses, I would give him claims some consideration.

    However, as he isn't, I put them in the same category as the various comments made over the years by Ian Paisley on Rome.

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Horse View Post
    Can someone point out similar calls made by Robertson regarding China, India, the US, and all other countries alleged to be violating human rights?
    AFAIK they are proper states.

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