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Thread: New Bill: Justifiable use of force may lead to death

  1. #1
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    Default New Bill: Justifiable use of force may lead to death

    Bill just published on this - what if any effect will this have on the burglar's mindset?

    Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Bill 2010 relating to the liability of a person regarding the use of force by him or her in his or her dwelling or in a dwelling in which he or she is a lawful occupant against a person who enters the dwelling; to amend the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997; and to provide for related matters.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/b...210/B4210D.pdf


    The key Section 2 provides-


    it shall not be an offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person
    who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another
    person or the property of another person where—

    (a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is
    entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of
    committing a criminal act, and

    (b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances
    as he or she believes them to be—
    (i) to protect himself or herself or another person present
    in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or
    death caused by a criminal act,
    (ii) to protect his or her property or the property of
    another person from appropriation, destruction or
    damage caused by a criminal act, or
    (iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or
    assist in effecting, a lawful arrest.

    (2) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person uses force
    against—

    (a) a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of
    his or her duty,
    (b) a person assisting a member of the Garda Síochána acting
    in the course of his or her duty, or
    (c) a person lawfully performing a function authorised by or
    under any enactment.

    (3) Subsection (1) shall not apply where the person using the force
    engages in conduct or causes a state of affairs for the purpose of
    using that force to resist or terminate an act of another person acting
    in response to that conduct or state of affairs, but subsection (1) may
    apply, if the occasion for the use of force arises only because the
    person using the force concerned does something he or she may lawfully
    do, knowing that such an occasion will arise.

    (4) It is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is
    honestly held but in considering whether the person using the force
    honestly held the belief, the court or the jury, as the case may be,
    shall have regard to the presence or absence of reasonable grounds
    for the person so believing and all other relevant circumstances.

    (5) It is immaterial whether the person using the force had a safe
    and practicable opportunity to retreat from the dwelling before using
    the force concerned. [...]

    (7) The use of force shall not exclude the use of force causing
    death.
    Last edited by He3; 19th July 2010 at 02:15 PM.
    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    (iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or
    assist in effecting, a lawful arrest.
    That is new ?

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    Hmmm. That rules out calling around to the houses of the bankers and politicians and their minions then to try and reclaim their ill-gotten gains? The timing of this bill might make someone more cynical than I think that sovereign default or terrible austerity measures may be around the next 'corner' we will be turning!
    “Words are animals, alive with a will of their own”.

  4. #4
    Boggle
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    In general it seems fair enough to be honest. Don't know if it will effect burglars at all but at least occupiers need not worry that they could end up in prison for defending their home.

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    I'm very uneasy about b (ii).

    Unless I'm misinterpreting this, it is a statutory right to use force purely in the defence of property (ie without any need for a person to believe they are physically threatened)?

    I'd be interested to see what a jury deems 'reasonable force' would be in that kind of case.

    And can any of the law buffs on here explain how this changes the current legislation? Is b (ii) a radically new concept, or just a more difinitive version of current legislation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boggle View Post
    In general it seems fair enough to be honest. Don't know if it will effect burglars at all but at least occupiers need not worry that they could end up in prison for defending their home.
    Would I be okay if I board Ivor's Serendipity II and if he tries to stop me from repossessing the €K80 he stole from all of us, can I defend myself by slinging him overboard in his Ralph Lauren kimono , or am I only covered if I call on him in one of his bricks and mortar principal residences?

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    Default In Defence of Your Home - New Law

    Min for Justice has just been on the 1 o'clock RTERad1 News trying to explain the ramifications of the new law concerning home protection and what a bad job he made of it. The Min rambled on and on with halfhearted confusing explanations as to the extent and limits of the use of permissible force now available to householders under criminal attack.

    Minister:.....what you need to say unequivocally is that the householder cannot ATTACK intruders but they can DEFEND their families, themselves and their homes against such attack.
    You also need to clarify that if the intruder is fleeing that the best option is to let them go and not to ATTACK as that will place the householder in a difficult position and quite possibly leave them open to charges of assault. This legislation is designed to enable homeowners to defend their homes and should not be seen as enabling homeowners to attack intruders.
    There will be Round-about discussions and arguments aplenty but the people need to be advised that this is primarily about DEFENCE and not ATTACK.

    In evaluating the new legislative provisions, it is important to set aside populist considerations such as "they get what they deserve".....or....if they come into my place by J...I'll do this, that...etc. The clarification is need because some people may consider that they are now empowered to do things and invoke sanctions and that is not the case.

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    Not that the media ever mention this, but FG published a nearly identical private members bill several years ago. Brian Lenihan, Justice Minister at the time, castigated it! Not for the first time, FF are the slow learners of Ireland!

  9. #9
    RepublicanSocialist1798
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    About time this bill was passed.

  10. #10
    Boggle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biffomania View Post
    Would I be okay if I board Ivor's Serendipity II and if he tries to stop me from repossessing the €K80 he stole from all of us, can I defend myself by slinging him overboard in his Ralph Lauren kimono , or am I only covered if I call on him in one of his bricks and mortar principal residences?
    As long as you are acting lawfully then he cannot touch you. If he refuses to comply, call the guards.

    Re loaf - good spot and it's arguable what to say here. I reckon that you should be allowed to stop them using force and if they get hurt in the process then so what?

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