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Thread: Catholic Church's influence before De Valera ?

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    Politics.ie Member SlabMurphy's Avatar
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    Default Catholic Church's influence before De Valera ?

    Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

    A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

    B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

    A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

    B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
    From Rome's backing for King Billy through the Irish hierarchy's gratitude to Britain for emancipation and on to the hierarchy's trenchant anti-revolutionary line when the revolution was being crushed by British-backed Irish conservatives during the Civil War, Ireland's two oppressive power blocks in London and Rome have often found mutual benefit in our subjugation.

    As for Dev's relations with the church, they weren't that good during the twenties, and Cosgrave and the rest of the regime were more than willing to look after the hierarchy's interests, particularly as the members of the hierarchy were from the same well-off backgrounds and schools as the Cosgraves and Fitzgeralds of the new regime, not to mention the DeValeras themselves.

    We swapped the combined oppression of empire and church for the more deeply ingrained combination of Rome and its Irish catholic ruling class.

    Some fine day we'll see off the latter. The sooner the better. Only then will we stand any chance of introducing logical thinking into Irish life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?
    I can't recall there being anything in state papers that specifically relates to that. IMHO there was no significant interest in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland before partition.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
    Interesting point. I think the point of education was quite far down considering the fall-out of the Civil War. On a more general note, the development of education in Ireland after independence is I think quite well set out in Vincent Comerford's book 'Inventing the Nation.

    "The thing that always annoyed me about traditional Irish historiography was the paradox of its Anglocentrism. People are now prepared, I think, to confront the possibility that many Irish problems are, in a sense, indigenous to the Irish situation." Roy Foster (1989).

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyasking View Post

    As for Dev's relations with the church, they weren't that good during the twenties...
    That's putting it mildly - he was excommunicated at one point, wasn't he?!

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    Politics.ie Member Catalpa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

    A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

    B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
    Er how exactly did Dev 'pander' to the Catholic Church exactly?

    The vast majority of the State's population was Catholic and went to Mass weekly.

    This wasn't really an issue at all

    - until the mid/late 1960s when rapid social change began to be apparent in this State and in other Countries with large Catholic populations.

    There is nothing to indicate that the Catholic Church was not considered part and parcel of the makeup of the Nation when Dev was in power.

    Name any politician (other than Noel Browne) who ever publicly had an issue with this?

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    Politics.ie Member SlabMurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyasking View Post
    From Rome's backing for King Billy through the Irish hierarchy's gratitude to Britain for emancipation and on to the hierarchy's trenchant anti-revolutionary line when the revolution was being crushed by British-backed Irish conservatives during the Civil War, Ireland's two oppressive power blocks in London and Rome have often found mutual benefit in our subjugation.

    As for Dev's relations with the church, they weren't that good during the twenties, and Cosgrave and the rest of the regime were more than willing to look after the hierarchy's interests, particularly as the members of the hierarchy were from the same well-off backgrounds and schools as the Cosgraves and Fitzgeralds of the new regime, not to mention the DeValeras themselves.

    We swapped the combined oppression of empire and church for the more deeply ingrained combination of Rome and its Irish catholic ruling class.

    Some fine day we'll see off the latter. The sooner the better. Only then will we stand any chance of introducing logical thinking into Irish life.
    Yes Cosgrove and co. did look after the CC's demands. Divorce allowing was banned in 1924 and selling artificial contraception was made illegal. A lot of people might have attributed these kind of policy's to Dev, but Fine Gael got in there first.
    Last edited by SlabMurphy; 17th July 2010 at 05:48 PM.

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    Politics.ie Member SlabMurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nem View Post
    I can't recall there being anything in state papers that specifically relates to that. IMHO there was no significant interest in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland before partition.
    During the Tithe war* 1831 - 1836, the CC not surprisingly supported the campaign to end the payment of these taxes. Because of the campaign the British decided it the collection of tithes was unproductive as “it cost a shilling to collect tuppence”. Instead they reduced the amount payable by about a quarter and made the remainder payable in rent to landlords. They in turn would pass payment to the authorities. Tithes were thus effectively added to a tenant's rent payment.

    In order to get the CC to support this con job they also introduced a bill dividing the schools on religious lines and offered the control freaks of the CC the control of their portion. And when the Free State came into being, one of the first things the FS did was to assure the CC that the education system would remain the same.

    *Tithe War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

    A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

    B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
    If you live in a country where 95% of the population speak Spanish then, more than likely like Spanish will be the official language and the business of government will be conducted through Spanish. Is this pandering to Spanish language speakers or just a reflection of what most people want?

    If you live in a country where 95% of the population are strict Muslims then it is more than likely that the laws of this country will reflect Islam and alcohol will be banned. Is this pandering to Muslims or simply giving people what they want?

    95% of the population in Southern Ireland were Catholic who opposed divorce and contraception and De Valera gave them what they wanted which was a ban on divorce and contraception.

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the majority of people in Ireland say up to the late 1980s favoured divorce and successive Irish governments refused to give it to them because they pandered to the RCC?

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    Politics.ie Member SlabMurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Er how exactly did Dev 'pander' to the Catholic Church exactly?
    The vast majority of the State's population was Catholic and went to Mass weekly.

    This wasn't really an issue at all

    - until the mid/late 1960s when rapid social change began to be apparent in this State and in other Countries with large Catholic populations.

    There is nothing to indicate that the Catholic Church was not considered part and parcel of the makeup of the Nation when Dev was in power.

    Name any politician (other than Noel Browne) who ever publicly had an issue with this?
    Dev's 1937 Constitution recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church". Their was also the bans on divorce, contraception, the CC reinforced public censorship and maintained its own list of banned literature which influenced the State's list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlabMurphy View Post
    Yes Cosgrove and co. did look after the CC's demands. Divorce allowing was banned in 1924 and selling artificial contraception was made illegal. A lot of people might have attributed these kind of policy's to Dev, but Fine Gael got in there first.
    I seem to remember a divorce referendum in 1986 that was massively defeated and another divorce referendum in 1994 that scraped through with a 0.28 percent majority. If the RCC was so powerful why didn't it just veto those referendums and depose the government.

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